Look, everybody says that Vader is this slow clunky thing. Now lets be honest. Vader is slow and clunky because Lucas didn't have no cool computer shit when he made 4-6. Had they been made now, we all know Vader would be a superfly asskicker of cgi amazement. In the Expanded universe this argument takes place in, we know he his.
Now, vader was weakend after the lava pit, though I think it's a testament to his strength he even lived through it at all. For that matter, if we look at Star Wars Infinities, Vader beat Yoda for chrissake. That suggest to me that in terms of actual force ability, Vader is no weaker. Did he look like he was having problems crushing everything in that room even though he'd just woken up from nearly dying? With the years of practice he's had between ROTS and ANH, I'm sure he's better then post Lava Vader. His problems are that he has the worst case of asthma ever and his cyborg limbs cant be force enhanced. And we know Lucas is just covering his ass with the whole thing anyway
Same reason Obi wan was a doddering slow piece of crud even though count Dooku was an aerial flipping bad mofo. And personally, I wonder that if he could have just killed vader, why the hell didn't he? I think luke would have benefited a lot more from a live mentor then a crptic ghost. I don't think Obi wan had any intention to win mind you. Hell, if he was sure he could face and beat vader again, I'm sure he'd have just taken him out while he was purging all the jedi (more proof vader can compensate for people who can do backflips, he killed quite a few masters while a machine man).
It is for these reasons I don't think Mace Windu could win. I'm not sure where the 80% fits into the timeline anyway. Is that immediatly after the accident, or at the poitn we meet vader again, during ANH? And is it ANH emporer, or ROTS emperor who would have probably been weaker. The numbers have changed too. Initially, Lucas mentioned that the reason Vader didn't use Telekinesis in ANH was because Obi wan was too strong for that, that if Vader was a 4 in power Obi wan was a 6. Now, using those numbers, Obi Wan is 20% stronger then the emperor, which begs the question why he didn't just get on a ship, goto Coruscant, and just kill the a-hole outright. We have to take a certain grian of salt since Lucas doesn't want to admit there are plotholes.
It is also said offically that vader did get stronger in the force after the accident, though obviously not as strong as he would have been. He's a lot more experienced and powerfull overall then he was just before the lava dip. While I'm sure direcly after the accident windu could have killed him, 17 years of killing jedi and learning to move his new body is a lot of time to compensate. Mace Windu would have a hell of a fight, and one I don't think he could ulitmately win. Though I do agree it'd be a kickass fun fight to see.
Ps: if we took away the force from all participants, say in a ysalmiri environment, Maul wouldn't be the strongest, Vader would for the reason hes normally weakend. Without the ability to channel the force, Vaders mechanical body would be the advantage. With one hard swipe he'd have maul or whomeever on their knees from the immense strength and dead shortly thereafter. And Grevious would be kicking everybody's ass.
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
Look, everybody says that Vader is this slow clunky thing. Now lets be honest. Vader is slow and clunky because Lucas didn't have no cool computer shit when he made 4-6. Had they been made now, we all know Vader would be a superfly asskicker of cgi amazement. In the Expanded universe this argument takes place in, we know he his.Now, vader was weakend after the lava pit, though I think it's a testament to his strength he even lived through it at all. For that matter, if we look at Star Wars Infinities, Vader beat Yoda for chrissake. That suggest to me that in terms of actual force ability, Vader is no weaker. Did he look like he was having problems crushing everything in that room even though he'd just woken up from nearly dying? With the years of practice he's had between ROTS and ANH, I'm sure he's better then post Lava Vader. His problems are that he has the worst case of asthma ever and his cyborg limbs cant be force enhanced. And we know Lucas is just covering his ass with the whole thing anyway
Same reason Obi wan was a doddering slow piece of crud even though count Dooku was an aerial flipping bad mofo. And personally, I wonder that if he could have just killed vader, why the hell didn't he? I think luke would have benefited a lot more from a live mentor then a crptic ghost. I don't think Obi wan had any intention to win mind you. Hell, if he was sure he could face and beat vader again, I'm sure he'd have just taken him out while he was purging all the jedi (more proof vader can compensate for people who can do backflips, he killed quite a few masters while a machine man).
It is for these reasons I don't think Mace Windu could win. I'm not sure where the 80% fits into the timeline anyway. Is that immediatly after the accident, or at the poitn we meet vader again, during ANH? And is it ANH emporer, or ROTS emperor who would have probably been weaker. The numbers have changed too. Initially, Lucas mentioned that the reason Vader didn't use Telekinesis in ANH was because Obi wan was too strong for that, that if Vader was a 4 in power Obi wan was a 6. Now, using those numbers, Obi Wan is 20% stronger then the emperor, which begs the question why he didn't just get on a ship, goto Coruscant, and just kill the a-hole outright. We have to take a certain grian of salt since Lucas doesn't want to admit there are plotholes.
It is also said offically that vader did get stronger in the force after the accident, though obviously not as strong as he would have been. He's a lot more experienced and powerfull overall then he was just before the lava dip. While I'm sure direcly after the accident windu could have killed him, 17 years of killing jedi and learning to move his new body is a lot of time to compensate. Mace Windu would have a hell of a fight, and one I don't think he could ulitmately win. Though I do agree it'd be a kickass fun fight to see.
I'd also like to add...(From Wikipedia)
"Darth Vader is a brilliant strategist and one of the greatest pilots in the galaxy. Vader still possesses his former persona's amazing engineering skills, having overseen the design of the TIE/Advanced fighter. His talent with the lightsaber is legendary. All of these skills are secondary to his incredible mastery of the Force."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...Darth Vader has my vote
Darth Vader in his armor beat Jedi Masters on his own...
1) Echuu Shen-Jon
2) Aidan Bok
3) The Dark Woman
Darth Vader is not weak at any cost...alot of people use the ROTJ duel to say that Vader was weak. Well to clear it up...Vader didn't go full throttle on his son, because he had feelings for him...the same with Luke, he had feelings for Vader. To prove my point...Do you think "The Dark Woman" could be beaten as a Jedi Master by Luke Skywalker as a Jedi Knight? I don't think so. And because the ANH battle was slow was because of the technology, but if you watch it again its not half bad...if you note the technology for back then.
Please give reasons...
Originally posted by InsaneNoodlyGuy
Look, everybody says that Vader is this slow clunky thing. Now lets be honest. Vader is slow and clunky because Lucas didn't have no cool computer shit when he made 4-6. Had they been made now, we all know Vader would be a superfly asskicker of cgi amazement. In the Expanded universe this argument takes place in, we know he his.
Now, vader was weakend after the lava pit, though I think it's a testament to his strength he even lived through it at all. For that matter, if we look at Star Wars Infinities, Vader beat Yoda for chrissake. That suggest to me that in terms of actual force ability, Vader is no weaker. Did he look like he was having problems crushing everything in that room even though he'd just woken up from nearly dying? With the years of practice he's had between ROTS and ANH, I'm sure he's better then post Lava Vader. His problems are that he has the worst case of asthma ever and his cyborg limbs cant be force enhanced. And we know Lucas is just covering his ass with the whole thing anyway
Same reason Obi wan was a doddering slow piece of crud even though count Dooku was an aerial flipping bad mofo. And personally, I wonder that if he could have just killed vader, why the hell didn't he? I think luke would have benefited a lot more from a live mentor then a crptic ghost. I don't think Obi wan had any intention to win mind you. Hell, if he was sure he could face and beat vader again, I'm sure he'd have just taken him out while he was purging all the jedi (more proof vader can compensate for people who can do backflips, he killed quite a few masters while a machine man).
It is for these reasons I don't think Mace Windu could win. I'm not sure where the 80% fits into the timeline anyway. Is that immediatly after the accident, or at the poitn we meet vader again, during ANH? And is it ANH emporer, or ROTS emperor who would have probably been weaker. The numbers have changed too. Initially, Lucas mentioned that the reason Vader didn't use Telekinesis in ANH was because Obi wan was too strong for that, that if Vader was a 4 in power Obi wan was a 6. Now, using those numbers, Obi Wan is 20% stronger then the emperor, which begs the question why he didn't just get on a ship, goto Coruscant, and just kill the a-hole outright. We have to take a certain grian of salt since Lucas doesn't want to admit there are plotholes.
It is also said offically that vader did get stronger in the force after the accident, though obviously not as strong as he would have been. He's a lot more experienced and powerfull overall then he was just before the lava dip. While I'm sure direcly after the accident windu could have killed him, 17 years of killing jedi and learning to move his new body is a lot of time to compensate. Mace Windu would have a hell of a fight, and one I don't think he could ulitmately win. Though I do agree it'd be a kickass fun fight to see
I'd also like to add...(From Wikipedia)
"Darth Vader is a brilliant strategist and one of the greatest pilots in the galaxy. Vader still possesses his former persona's amazing engineering skills, having overseen the design of the TIE/Advanced fighter. His talent with the lightsaber is legendary. All of these skills are secondary to his incredible mastery of the Force."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...Darth Vader
First off, Wilkipedia, for all its niceness, is merely a compilation of submitted material by fans and such. It is not the mouthpiece of Lucas himself. That paragraph you posted is contradicted by the movie itself, in which Anakin is destroyed by Obi-Wan in combat. And thereafter, he loses his power. He never truly masters anything about the Force, having lost his ability and most of his body. He has no real Jedi or Sith enemies with which to fight with after ROTS. It's just abundant fanboyism. Much like the majority of your post.
Second, Lucas' limitations on technology or budget are not an issue here. The only reason the PT fights are flashier is because of Nick Gillard's choreography (Ugh... I dislike his work). Now, the essence of a character's ability isn't diminished because they can't do backflips or kun fu-like rapid attacks... If anything, the battles in the OT are closer to more logical and effective fighting. Spinning, flipping, and flourishes are dangerous and professionals would avoid them. Now....
Darth Vader is a favorite for the majority of SW fans for the last thirty years. But he is not the best Jedi or Sith ever. No where close. Mace Windu was a master on the council, second only to Yoda himself, and much more capable in combat than Skywalker ever was, even in his heyday. Anakin's mental and emotional instability makes him a reckless, unruly opponent, and Mace Windu would destroy him utterly and efficiently. You don't get to be Mace Windu without being able to kick ass.
Darth Vader in his armor beat Jedi Masters on his own...
1) Echuu Shen-Jon
2) Aidan Bok
3) The Dark Woman
Darth Vader is not weak at any cost...alot of people use the ROTJ duel to say that Vader was weak. Well to clear it up...Vader didn't go full throttle on his son, because he had feelings for him...the same with Luke, he had feelings for Vader. To prove my point...Do you think "The Dark Woman" could be beaten as a Jedi Master by Luke Skywalker as a Jedi Knight? I don't think so. And because the ANH battle was slow was because of the technology, but if you watch it again its not half bad...if you note the technology for back then.
We haven't seen the "true" Darth Vader.
You have underestimated...
I see you have watched ROTJ many times. Boba Fett was dispatched accidentally by Han Solo with a staff/spear.
But anyways, Mace can destroy Vader. Vader isn't a master of anything. And since the battle on Mustafar he has GROWN WEAKER. Let me telegraph this for you so you won't miss it: LUCAS HIMSELF SAID THAT ANAKIN HAD LOST LOTS OF POTENTIAL, POWER, AND WHATNOT AFTER MUSTAFAR. If you don't believe that, you're hopeless.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I have underestimated? You have overestimated. Where does it say those three are superior to Mace Windu, or even on his level? How does his fighting those (probably with a legion of troopers up his mecha-ass as he did it) prove your case, that he would win this battle?
Don't lecture me Janus. I don't want to argue, but you have no right to accuse me of overestimating when you have done way more of that with Darth Revan.
Now back on subject...
Darth Vader wouldn't be killed with ease. He has beaten strong Jedi Masters as well...with his armor. Like "The Dark Woman", Echuu Shen-Jon, Aidan Bok, and others.
And if you mistrust Wikipedia...how about Star Wars.com
As an agent of the Sith, Vader was a merciless killer. He brought about the extinction of the Jedi, personally slaying or crippling such notable knights as Halagad Ventor and Empatojayos Brand. The slaughter of the Jedi was widespread, but several Force-sensitive individuals were spared. Select agents of the Emperor were allowed to keep their knowledge of the Force, as long as they used it as the Emperor commanded.
Darth Vader would have more experience in the Force and possibly through the years battling many Jedi he gained alot more knowledge of lightsaber combat, though Wikipedia claims them to be legendary already. This wouldn't just be some walk in the park, Mace would have trouble and possibly be defeated...and in the end I think he would.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I see you have watched ROTJ many times. Boba Fett was dispatched accidentally by Han Solo with a staff/spear.But anyways, Mace can destroy Vader. Vader isn't a master of anything. And since the battle on Mustafar he has GROWN WEAKER. Let me telegraph this for you so you won't miss it: LUCAS HIMSELF SAID THAT ANAKIN HAD LOST LOTS OF POTENTIAL, POWER, AND WHATNOT AFTER MUSTAFAR. If you don't believe that, you're hopeless.
Like I said I don't need your lectures...your wasting your own time. You know Luke could have finished the job...Ahh I'm not getting into this.
I know what Lucas said...he said Vader lost his power and was roughly around 80% of Darth Sidious.