Aliens and Life in other Worlds [Merged]

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is dark matter? There is a lot we don't know.

the thing is, we know it is there

we might not know a lot about it, but we can see the way it impacts things we do know about

for their to be lifeforms that exist entirely of things we cannot see with our tools, they would also have to have no impact on the things we can see.

It is possible, sure, but it seems a lot like a "god-of-the-gaps" argument.

Originally posted by 753
yes, the criteria how humanlike other lifeforms are

to be honest though, determining what parts of human cognition are applicable only to humans, given our evolutionary history after we diverged from the other apes, and what we can use to compare with other animals is going to be incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

to tie this into the thread, this whole thing about "intelligence" and anthrocentrism is essentially why I am skeptical of "intellignet" life on other planets. How unlikely is it that organisms developed a neuroarchetecture and body physique that would even allow them "intelligence" as defined by humans?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What is dark matter? There is a lot we don't know.

I didn't say we know everything. I said if we think something is somewhere (and it is) then it cannot escape human notice. Dark matter is a perfect example of that, we know nothing about it but we can still prove it exists by experiment.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I didn't say we know everything. I said if we think something is somewhere (and it is) then it cannot escape human notice. Dark matter is a perfect example of that, we know nothing about it but we can still prove it exists by experiment.

Experiment? We only know about dark matter because the amount of matter in stars and planets cannot explain the shape of galaxies. To date (this may have changes as of late) there is no experiment that can be done with dark matter. However, I agree, mostly, with your point.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Experiment? We only know about dark matter because the amount of matter in stars and planets cannot explain the shape of galaxies. To date (this may have changes as of late) there is no experiment that can be done with dark matter. However, I agree, mostly, with your point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Observational_evidence

its a little more than just galaxy mass, though yes, that was the initial observation that lead scientists to think dark matter exists

It's highly likely that there are intelligent life forms that inhabit other planets in other solar systems that are like us or more advanced just in our galaxy alone. The probability is astronomical high, figuratively and literally speaking.

Imagine the universe. Which is unimaginably vast. There's just no way that it's only us and that's it. We're a small piece of a spec compared to the universe and the possibilities.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Imagine the universe. Which is unimaginably vast. There's just no way that it's only us and that's it. We're a small piece of a spec compared to the universe and the possibilities.

seriously?

we spent 2-3 pages going over the stats behind this logical fallacy just a couple of pages ago...

Given that the laws of physics appear to be universal, would not mathematics be common ground for at least some, if not most, intelligent, technological species? And if so, wouldn't that mean some commonality between our intelligence and theirs?

Originally posted by Mindship
Given that the laws of physics appear to be universal, would not mathematics be common ground for at least some, if not most, intelligent, technological species? And if so, wouldn't that mean some commonality between our intelligence and theirs?

I guess that is possible, but that would mean that, on any planet where life exists, it is going to take nearly the exact same path as life on Earth did.

also, Gould has talked about the cambrian explosion (thats the right one?), where vertibrate life seemed to win out over other types of life. He said there was no real explanatory reason that made it so vertibrates would win, and if we "re-ran" the evolution of life on earth, it could very well have been that vertibrates didn't become the dominant species of life.

human intelligence is a very specific evolutionary trait that came in response to specific changes in our environment based on what physiology we had prior to that.

So, look at chimps, in terms of working memory, they are superior to humans, and if we define intelligence in those terms, they would be "smarter" than us, so we know that human intelligence is not simply just gaining more processing power. Further, look at dolphins. They lack any real fundamental way to interact with their environment (no thumbs) and the ocean is much less accomidating to structures or other artifacts of the like. Thus, it is highly unlikely that they would develop an intelligence that is "human-like". I'm sure we can point to tasks that dolphines may be superior at than are humans, but we can't say that dolphins even come close to the type of intelligence that makes humans human.

it is possible that life may develop something analogous, but again, I am very skeptical. it has only happened once on earth, under very specific circumstances, some unrelated to brain complexity entirely.

Originally posted by Mindship
Given that the laws of physics appear to be universal, would not mathematics be common ground for at least some, if not most, intelligent, technological species? And if so, wouldn't that mean some commonality between our intelligence and theirs?

Originally posted by inimalist
I guess that is possible, but that would mean that, on any planet where life exists, it is going to take nearly the exact same path as life on Earth did.

also, Gould has talked about the cambrian explosion (thats the right one?), where vertibrate life seemed to win out over other types of life. He said there was no real explanatory reason that made it so vertibrates would win, and if we "re-ran" the evolution of life on earth, it could very well have been that vertibrates didn't become the dominant species of life.

human intelligence is a very specific evolutionary trait that came in response to specific changes in our environment based on what physiology we had prior to that.

So, look at chimps, in terms of working memory, they are superior to humans, and if we define intelligence in those terms, they would be "smarter" than us, so we know that human intelligence is not simply just gaining more processing power. Further, look at dolphins. They lack any real fundamental way to interact with their environment (no thumbs) and the ocean is much less accomidating to structures or other artifacts of the like. Thus, it is highly unlikely that they would develop an intelligence that is "human-like". I'm sure we can point to tasks that dolphines may be superior at than are humans, but we can't say that dolphins even come close to the type of intelligence that makes humans human.

it is possible that life may develop something analogous, but again, I am very skeptical. it has only happened once on earth, under very specific circumstances, some unrelated to brain complexity entirely.

Originally posted by inimalist
it is possible that life may develop something analogous, but again, I am very skeptical. it has only happened once on earth, under very specific circumstances, some unrelated to brain complexity entirely.

Originally posted by 753
The issue is that it's unlikely life evolving in another planet will produce creatures with cognitive capacities similar to ours. Including the capacity to create and use math.

If I understand you guys correctly, then I agree (based on our only biospheric example: Earth), that "intelligence," per se, is probably quite rare. To highlight inimalist's post: I had read once that since life began on Earth, there have been about 50 billion different species (most of which have come and gone) with only one -- 1 -- having risen to technological prominance. Doing some ballpark calculations (while completely ignoring the Drake equation), I think I had figured that amounts to only about 8 other intelligent races in our Galaxy, averaging about 12,000 lightyears apart.

However...should another technological, especially spacefaring species arise, I would think our common ground would be mathematics based on an understanding of the laws of physics.

Originally posted by Mindship
If I understand you guys correctly, then I agree (based on our only biospheric example: Earth), that "intelligence," per se, is probably quite rare. To highlight inimalist's post: I had read once that since life began on Earth, there have been about 50 billion different species (most of which have come and gone) with only one -- 1 -- having risen to technological prominance. Doing some ballpark calculations (while completely ignoring the Drake equation), I think I had figured that amounts to only about 8 other intelligent races in our Galaxy, averaging about 12,000 lightyears apart.

However...should another technological, especially spacefaring species arise, I would think our common ground would be mathematics based on an understanding of the laws of physics.

Originally posted by Mindship
If I understand you guys correctly, then I agree (based on our only biospheric example: Earth), that "intelligence," per se, is probably quite rare. To highlight inimalist's post: I had read once that since life began on Earth, there have been about 50 billion different species (most of which have come and gone) with only one -- 1 -- having risen to technological prominance. Doing some ballpark calculations (while completely ignoring the Drake equation), I think I had figured that amounts to only about 8 other intelligent races in our Galaxy, averaging about 12,000 lightyears apart.

However...should another technological, especially spacefaring species arise, I would think our common ground would be mathematics based on an understanding of the laws of physics.

12,000 LY is a long ways away. 😱

Originally posted by Mindship
Given that the laws of physics appear to be universal, would not mathematics be common ground for at least some, if not most, intelligent, technological species? And if so, wouldn't that mean some commonality between our intelligence and theirs?

I'm reminded of Clarke's "apes and angels" hypothesis. A technological species will have existed for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. If we encounter them they have to be within maybe 100 technological years (ie we could equal their technology within 100 years or they have technology we had 100 years ago) of us at that time for us to be able to meaningfully interact. That's such a narrow band in a species history that it might never happen, we'd either meet "apes" and watch them grow up or meet "angels" and stare at them in awe.

Imagine an interaction between the ancient Greek natural philosophers and modern day physicists. Their worldviews conflict at the best of times and are incomprehensible at others, the Greeks had no calculus or algebra for example.

Now, this does make the assumptiosn that while the rate of development may be different it will still be basically parallel to humanity's (ie a slow increase in the rate of technological development) and that there is no limit to practical differences in technology.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
12,000 LY is a long ways away. 😱

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I'm reminded of Clarke's "apes and angels" hypothesis. A technological species will have existed for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. If we encounter them they have to be within maybe 100 technological years (ie we could equal their technology within 100 years or they have technology we had 100 years ago) of us at that time for us to be able to meaningfully interact. That's such a narrow band in a species history that it might never happen, we'd either meet "apes" and watch them grow up or meet "angels" and stare at them in awe.

Originally posted by Mindship
Far enough such that any species within 100 tech-years of us would effectively find themselves seemingly alone in the Galaxy (barring out-of-left-field tech breakthroughs), just like we do.
...

Traveling 12,000 ly is, and will be an impossibility for a long time, if not forever. However, time travel, which seems to be far out, maybe more feasible in the long run. I sometimes wonder if UFO's are really us from the far future. I don't take it very seriously, but it might be more feasible then traveling 12,000 ly.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Traveling 12,000 ly is, and will be an impossibility for a long time, if not forever. However, time travel, which seems to be far out, maybe more feasible in the long run. I sometimes wonder if UFO's are really us from the far future. I don't take it very seriously, but it might be more feasible then traveling 12,000 ly.

If you can time travel you can also travel FTL, they're pretty much the same thing.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you can time travel you can also travel FTL, they're pretty much the same thing.

Not really. Closed time like curves could allow you to travel back in time and not travel faster then light, but who knows?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Traveling 12,000 ly is, and will be an impossibility for a long time, if not forever.

However, time travel, which seems to be far out, maybe more feasible in the long run. I sometimes wonder if UFO's are really us from the far future. I don't take it very seriously, but it might be more feasible then traveling 12,000 ly.

That, or our descendents are incredible perverts.

Originally posted by Mindship
Even at Trek:TOS warp 10 (1000c), it should still take years.

I would sooner go with the far-future hypothesis then ETs...it may even explain the anal probing. Perhaps crapping is obsolete in the far future, and those future humans just can't grok what we - their ancestors - do.

That, or our descendents are incredible perverts.

😆 We are already incredible perverts.