Batman Vs Batgirl(Cass)

Batman never beat Shiva hand-to-hand. Batman was getting his ass kicked by Shiva until Robin knocked her down from behind, then Batman finished her off. Batman himself in the issue I cited, said he didn't beat her - why are you saying he did?

Even when Batman and Batgirl fought, Batman was running all over the city with her chasing, and he was using all his gizmos and gadgets and couldn't take her down. On some level it was sparring, but it didn't stop him from using his toys on her.

And how "committed" does Batman have to be to not get beaten into unconsciousness by Deathstroke? That excuse is BS - Batman is more committed to stopping crime than he is to being nice to a criminal. Batman fought him hard - his blows didn't hurt Deathstroke all that much. He was just outclassed. But looking at how Batgirl casually countered everything Deathstroke did, INCLUDING when he pulled a gun, how could you possibly argue that she did not have a better showing than Batman.

This is a mismatch in hand-to-hand. Everybody in the DCU knows it - including the two combatants themselves.

But I want to reiterate that if Batgirl ever went evil and Batman had to bring her down - he could do it. And not with all that much trouble, either. But not hand-to-hand...

You do know that Batman has fought Shiva more then once? You do know that Batman has fought Deathstroke more then once? You site one instance of Batman fighting each of them like he never fought either them other then those occasions.

The issue where Batgirl and Batman were fighting all around town, Batman didn't want to fight Cass (at least at the start of the fight) and it still was a draw. It could be argued that Deathstroke just underestimate Batgirl but really it was just a bad showing from him.

He got a point there.

Batman didn't want to fight Batgirl at first, but they both got completely caught up in it. So Batman with all his toys and basically ADDICTED to fighting her, still wasn't able to beat her. And that's with his toys. No way he's taking it hand-to-hand.

And yes, he fought Deathstroke and Shiva more than once. And it's ALWAYS been shown that Batman was outmatched without using some sort of sophisicated plan and lots of gadgets. What I posted is just one example where there was clearly an extended hand-to-hand battle. Everything was just typical Battricks - not worth posting because it's not relevant to the debate, which is who is a better hand-to-hand combatant.

6 times out of 10, Batman would win, based on experience alone. If Batgirl was as experienced as he was, I'd give the advantage to her.

And then Karate Kid materializes out of nowhere and hands both of them their asses on silver platters!

Batman is just as dangerous as either Lady Shiva and deathstroke. Is just that he chooses not to be. Because batman is at their level.

Batman fan boys ruin the point.

Batman is NOT as good a fighter as Shiva or Batgirl. And batgirl is better than shiva.

Batman beat Lady Shiva in Superman Batman, but that was crap.

Batgirl is no where as good a fighter as Shiva. And besides if you are going by who is the best fighter (and not martial artist) it is going to be batman.

And ask for the fight between shiva and batman it seems to me that shiva was getting in more punches but batman was built to take those punches so one could call it a draw until robin came and tipped the favor.

Correct me if I am wrong it has been a while,
In this Superman/Batman wasn't batman wondering who was truly the better martial artist or fighter between him and shiva?

Originally posted by lifeisaglich
Batgirl is no where as good a fighter as Shiva. And besides if you are going by who is the best fighter (and not martial artist) it is going to be batman.

Actually, I agree with both sentiments. Batgirl isn't as good as Lady Shiva, despite the fact that she defeated Shiva. People win fights sometimes and lose those same fights other times. It shows that Batgirl rivals Shiva, not that Batgirl is better than Shiva. A rematch is in order between the two. Keep in mind that Batgirl isn't nearly at her prime yet. A prime Batgirl will be a force to be reckoned with.

And I'd also say that Batman is a better *fighter* than them both, if by "fighter", you mean, "does what is necessary to defeat the opponent". Kinda like in Ong Bak, when the lead character fights that guy who throws chairs and TVs and bottles of beer and arcade machines at him. Batman is that guy. He uses what is at his disposal to win. Which is why I was saying that Batgirl would go down if she ever went evil. But in terms of hand-to-hand, Batman can't beat her.

And ask for the fight between shiva and batman it seems to me that shiva was getting in more punches but batman was built to take those punches so one could call it a draw until robin came and tipped the favor.

I suppose you could call it a draw. Some people call Odin vs. Thanos a draw too...

Originally posted by demigawd
And I'd also say that Batman is a better *fighter* than them both, if by "fighter", you mean, "does what is necessary to defeat the opponent". Kinda like in Ong Bak, when the lead character fights that guy who throws chairs and TVs and bottles of beer and arcade machines at him. Batman is that guy. He uses what is at his disposal to win. Which is why I was saying that Batgirl would go down if she ever went evil. But in terms of hand-to-hand, Batman can't beat her.

Well, I guess he's somewhat like that guy you specified in Ong Bak, but far brighter and less direct. And Ting should haven't allowed that guy to do that much damage in the first place. Was it some macho thing for him to take it?

I haven't caught up with my Batgirl reading, but if she ever did lose her body language reading capabilities completely, she will be in trouble as when she lost this ability previously, Batman said she had shoddy defensive skills.

She went without her body reading skills for awhile. She wasn't AS effective, but she was still very, very good. But that doesn't mean anything - her body reading skills are a part of her. The way sight is a part of us. Of course she would have a hard time without it, just like we wouldn't be good fighters if we were suddenly blind (though most of us are crappy fighters even with 20/20 vision, lol)

And I'd also say that Batman is a better *fighter* than them both, if by "fighter", you mean, "does what is necessary to defeat the opponent". Kinda like in Ong Bak, when the lead character fights that guy who throws chairs and TVs and bottles of beer and arcade machines at him. Batman is that guy. He uses what is at his disposal to win. Which is why I was saying that Batgirl would go down if she ever went evil. But in terms of hand-to-hand, Batman can't beat her.

Yes I agree, batman has made clear time and time again that he does not fight for sport. He fights to put you down.

And Batgirl being at her prime will make little to know difference in a fight against shiva. Shiva is still going to win because of experience.

About the fight with batman and batgirl. Batgirl was doing a bit better than Batman in the physical aspects of it, but Batman obviously wasn't giving it his all on the physical side. He was more about controling the fight, directing it where he wanted to go, and making her do what he wanted her to do. Strictly based on physical skills, she might beat him. However, factoring in his mind, I doubt she'd last long if he really decided he wanted her down. If he wants to end the match quickly he uses gadgets.

I can agree with that.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shiva brought Cass back with a some mystic chi technique that took her three years to get ready for that she said she couldnt use again if she wanted to. Cass won because Shiva was weaken from some mystical chi crap and she got lucky on her win, it could have gone either way. Shiva in full health would pawn Cass just like at the start of that comic.

Onyx can land hits on Batgirl in hth so you know Batman can.

First of all it was one year not three. Shiva started to prepare herself after Cassandra agreed to fight her after a year. She even says so in the book - that the preparation took her one year.

Secondly Cassandra is the only person to have gotten that far with Shiva. Now, there are two other people that Shiva respects (and she respects them by letting them call her just Shiva instead of LADY Shiva). One of them is Richard Dragon, who she trained (and loved). The other is Batman, who she respected enough to agree to train Tim Drake (something she would nromally not even consider doing).
But Batgirl is the only one who has ever been a TRUE match for Shiva. And in a way Shiva sees her as some sort of quasi-daughter/sister.

Now, in the DC fighting hierachy (for humans) the top two are Shiva and Batgirl (with Shiva slightly being better than Cass). Then comes Richard Dragon (who used to be number one before Shiva). Then there are people like Master Kigiri and Batman taking up the next tier. And after that come people like Onyx and Ollie (yep, he can be bad news), with Tim Drake and Dick Grayson being oscillating somewhere here.

Now, Batman is better trained than Shiva in some respects. For example Shiva's signature act is the Leopard Blow (where she drives her fingers through an opponent's skull - basically impalling her fingers in their brain). Batman knows this skill as well, but he has taken it further to where he can use it and NOT kill a person. Shiva stopped at merely the killing part.
Batman also knows several killing methods from Kigiri, for example the Whispering Hand, which is a Chi attack that can stop someone's heart. Again, this is something Batman does not use.
He is also well versed in many pressure point attacks (just as Batgirl, Richard Dragon, and Shiva are), but Batman uses them for stunning opponents while the other 3 (although Batgirl is now using them like Batman) use them for killing moves.

Hence, Batman is no slouch. Unleashed, and not giving a darn about killing, he would be far better than he is now since he would not need to control himself.

However that would make him equal to Richard Dragon (who was one of the people who trained Bruce Wayne, and knows even more styles than Bruce's 127). Bruce would become a Richard Dragon in a cape and carrying gadgets.

But he would still be under Shiva and Batgirl!
The reason is that while Richard (vs Shiva) and Batman (vs Cass) are all great, the ladies have one thing the gents lack. The ability to PREDICT moves. Batman and Richard can READ moves instantly, and they have both been shown doing this while BLINDFOLDED, but the girls are able to read moves BEFORE they have been done.
That split second advantage is what makes the difference between a Shiva and a Dragon, and between a Cassandra and a Bruce.
Otherwise they are all similar in skill and ability, and in some ways Bruce is more knowledgeable than even Shiva (although Dragon knows all).

p.s: The fight between Shiva and Batman, the one in the Superman-Batman thing, is skewed. Shiva was being mind-controlled by Gorilla Grodd. It is different from fighting while with 100% of her mental faculties. And since you keep saying that Cassandra beat Shiva because she was tired from using Chi to bring Cassie back from the dead, you should be willing to accept that a mind-controlled Shiva would be similarly below form.

p.p.s: If Batman needed to take out Shiva and/or Batgirl, he could do it. Easily. He is the most dangerous human on DC earth. But if it only involved hand to hand fighting he woud find serious problems with Richard Dragon (he could only take Dragon if he decided to use his killing moves, and doing so would only make them equal), and he would be unable to defeat Shiva and/or Batgirl (because no matter how skilled he is they are as similarly skilled, PLUS have the ability to know what he is going to do before he does it).
That is a serious advantage.
It is like you being Superman, and having all his skills and attributes, and me being Superman as well, and having all the abilities ....but with the added ability to know what is going to happen before it happens. At our levels of power that one factor would be what would be necessary to win.

Now ask for the top fighter I disagree with you on that one. If you read on one of the earlier posts you will find what we mean about fighting. And this a person that will do anything to win. Now if you were talking about martial arts I agree with you.

And if batman decides to start killing people. Batman is going to move right to the top. He is not going to be on equal parting with anyone. Shiva and Batgirl have the predicting thing down but batman has the mass to absorb most of their punches sooner or later they are going to slip up and that is all batman is going to need. Because if batman starts killing people his effectiveness just increased another 100%.

The encounter superman-batman between Shiva and batman looks that way but what about their encounter in death in the family. That fight was a draw if you ask me because batman was not on the ground about to be chopped in half by shiva before the boy wonder decided that he needed his help. They were both engaged in an all out war before robin interfered.

i'm sure batman could do this if he really took off the kid gloves and stopped playing around

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You do know that Batman has fought Shiva more then once? You do know that Batman has fought Deathstroke more then once? You site one instance of Batman fighting each of them like he never fought either them other then those occasions.

Still, Cass has a better win record against both. I think Bruce is something like one wins, four losses vs Slade, while Batgirl's at three draws (four if you count the time Vera mimiced Slade's skills). Two clear wins against Shiva for Cass and in all of Batman's encounters I think he's always needed aid to score wins, be it from Robin or mind control or something else.

The issue where Batgirl and Batman were fighting all around town, Batman didn't want to fight Cass (at least at the start of the fight) and it still was a draw. It could be argued that Deathstroke just underestimate Batgirl but really it was just a bad showing from him.

I'll note that Batman was retreating a lot during that fight. That and an earlier match between them (where they fight for awhile, they stop and Bruce accuses her of not giving it her all... then he coughs up blood and smiles, he missed the winning blow) give the impression: Batman can hold against her for quite awhile but it's a degrading stalemate that he'll lose.

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Throw in non-hand to hand, and it's the reserve. Batgirl's experience with Batman will allow her to avoid a fair number of tricks, but Batman knows this and will have a way to get her.

Batgirl's got no metagene, but a unique upbringing that makes her brain work differently is about as good.

deathstroke was tooling cass.......toying with her as if she wasn't even a threat

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batman would beat Cass in hand to hand.

I don't think so. 😄

You ever think about what would happen if you had to fight her, for real? Not sparring. The real deal?

Batman:

I'd lose

Good one, man.

There you go, right from the horses mouth. (Cue the "And Superman said Martian Manhunter is the most powerful being on Earth" rebuttle.)