if we'r talking about characters than yes there are losts of greys in star wars, as it should be. anakin, luke, han, quigon (just a little bit), and of course dooku. they all have pasts or character traits that would suggest that. but as for what is actually seen in the 2 hr movies, i agree most are white or black. vader is complety black until we find out that he was anakin, and then later that there is still good in him. han definetly has the non white past and is conflicted about it in the movies, but eventually does the right thing. as for dooku he used to be a jedi and now is a sith and theres the whole separatist thing and the "join me" line to ob1. we won't really know how he is in the movie until the 16th. and ush, i have a question about the western allegory, if this is true why does luke wear black in rotj?
Besides, you can't say someone is grey because of what they end up doing; it is what motivates it is the important part.
No, I certainly did NOT argue the opposite for Han. He WANTED to be grey, but in the end his motivations were pure. The rest would not otherwise work.
Han's grey area barely even exists. He is the woest scoundrel ever; he can't get being selfish right at all.
GL didn;t want such grey charatcers in his film. Just because not everyone is abolsutely and UTTERLY 100% whote, it does not detract from the fact that ultimately there are no greay areas in Star Wars except for the Skywalkers.
And this is exactly how it was in those westerns. It is not as if the white hats were all holy puritans!
ur no-grey-character-in-starwars-but-the-skywalkers theory is making me partly believe in you and partly dont.
i can see many grey characters in starwars.
if GL didn´t mean it then what happened to him? he didn´t accomplish what he meant according to me and to sarlacc.
i think ush ur theory lacks of either truth or better proof.
i still see many grey in starwars, not only the skywalkers.
this whole thing started with dooku, it seems possible he may have complex motivations (grey). and i find that extremely intriguing. i can't wait to see another fallen jedi who became a sith and if he has desings of power for himself. the only reason i started arguing with you ush is because i hate absolutes and you came in here saying "no grey, EVERYTHING has to be black or white." i don't think that is or has to be the case. i know your GL qutes, but often artist intent doesn't match audience perception. and when was the quote made, while making ot or more current?anyway, i think i'm done with this discussion until we can argue about the facts instead of speculation about dooku. i look foward to your observations though, you seem to have a keen eye and be intelligent. the only thing i'll say about han is that as you have said previously ush, it is about motivation. and you said that han can't get being selfish right. you agree he's trying to be selfish, so the fact remains that his actions and words until the climax of ANH are motivated by selfishness and greed. those aren't the motivations of the easily descernable hero. through out the triolgy he does evolve into the white hero, a kind of minor theme of redemption. so i agree if you look at han at the end of the story, you can say he fits the black or white concept, but it took time for him to achieve it.
That;s not what I meant when I said he could not get being selfish right. As I made clear elsewhere, no matter how much he pretends otherwise, he does not truly want to be selfish. Quite the opposite.
Personally, I think if you can see a lot of grey in Star Wars, then you are looking far too hard. As GL said, this is meant to be a very basic morality tale. It's black hats and white hats, guys, and there's not much point looking far beyond that. It's simply not that sort of story.
Take a look at all the pages here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5379/sw-intro.htm
For an in-depth discussion on why the polarisation of good and evil in Star Wars is so important.
If you hate absolutes, then I am afraid that you therefore must hate the moral structure of Star Wars.
i think this is han´s stoy:
he lived a tough life , and this life tought him that to be able to survive you have to be brave, intelligent and selfish, no heroism nor anything like that.
but deep down in himself he found that he did know the difference between right and wrong, honorable and dishonorable, he knew he had values and when the time came he actually did moral choices even though his life-instincts were telling him to be selfish and care only for himself.
one big proof of it is the caring he has for chewie, no smuggler cares for his best friend so badly.
and he made friends, no smuggler make friends.
and so on.
i can see why ush says he is 100% white, but nevertheless from time to time he wanted to do the opposite so that makes him kinda grey.
Also, it is helpful to understand GL's use of Joseph Campbell's theories to see why his characters polarise so.
And again, even if Han sometimes has aspirations and hopes that are not necessarily good and wholesome, it changes nothing. Star Wars characters can all be split good and bad- like, I say again, white hats and black hats. There are no characters that are morally in-between, and only the Skywalkers ever cross the line.
i think i see the problem. we're agruing about a concept that we are difining in different terms. i totally agree that the characters can all be quiclky filed into the category of either good or evil, white or black. there is no doubt about that. this is not exactly where i'm coming up with my grey. when i say that han(or anyone) is grey, i mean that their motiviations are not purely the pusuit of good or evil. han, as introduced in ANH, is motivated by money and self preservation. those are his main concerns, not the cause of destroying the empire and definitely not self sacrice. yet he still is easily understood to be on the good side. i think you are looking at the designed simplistic moral structure and i am recognizing that and looking at indivual characterizations.
i agree that han doens't want to be selfish, thats ultimatelywhy he becomes the pure white hero, but he definetly begins as acting on his selfish impulses. if han had always been some atlruistic 'normal' hero the movies would have been less interesting, not meaning the overall story just the movies. and whether or not GL intended it, i like the subplot of a han solo redemtion, from scoundrel to hero. together with luke, he epitomizes the unlikely heros of fantasy and mythology.
and thatnks for the link, no time now, but i'll check it out later.
Righty-ho. Well, as I say, obviously the characters are not just one-dimensional good guys. But the point is still that you are never left in any doubt about whether a person is good or evil.
Which is why I said that, without a radical shift, I see no chance of Dooku turning out to be a good guy.
But maybe there HAS been a shift; after all, this moral strucutre was built for the Original Trilogy. I am prrtty sure it hasn't changed, but I guess the possibility exists.