Third, I didn't notice any bad acting in RotJ by the three main characters, so maybe you just have a nitpicking issue. And lastly... If you reply to this, make it worth my while. [/B][/QUOTE]
it was perfectly obvious that the acting was not up to par like it was in the first two films.it was so lame at times.No notpicking just able to see the obvious which you obviously dont.
Originally posted by Red Superfly
Oh come on, do you really believe that?A) In the original drafts of Star Wars, there were the Skywalker twins. They became Luke and Leia. FACT.
B) Leia didn't give Luke a passionate kiss. She was digging Han, and when Han got all mouthy, she got all defensive and PRETENDED to kiss Luke passionately, it was to get Han all jealous. The movie made that pretty damn obvious. Luke was the only other male in the room. Would it have made sense for her to plant a smacker on Chewy instead?
C) Lucas didn't know if Star Wars was gonna be a hit. He didn't have time to do the whole twin thing, and so kept that idea on the backburner, but kept it open enough, that if there was a sequel, he left the Luke and Leia relationship open enough.
D) Most people are mature enough to understand it wasn't insest because they weren't aware of who each other were.
It's really that simple.
Well Lucas had a brain fart obviously when Empire was being filmed by having Leia kiss him on the mouth like that and so what if she was just doing it to make Han jealous,it was incest plain and simple because it happened between a brother and sister.just ruins the whole thing and I have spoken to many many people over the years that felt the same thing that them being brothers and sisters just ruined the whole thing in Jedi.It does not matter if she wasn't sincere when she kissed him either because she fooled Luke into thinking it was passionate obviously since Luke enjoyed the kiss with his big grin he had afterwards.The whole thing of Luke and Leia being brother and sister is completely stupid anyways because here Luke is getting a message from a robot with an image of a princess that he falls head over heels in love with and wants to go off and rescue and she just happens to later turn out to be his sister? yeah right,whatever.She also kissed Luke on the mouth again in Empire when they went back to cloud city to rescue him,she plants one right on him when he is resting on the bed.That was a horrible idea for them to become brother and sisters in jedi and many star wars fans felt insulted by it.That ruined everything about Jedi even though there were other things wrong with it as well.
You have quite an issue on that. I suggest you try thinking of a few things:
A) They had no clue. It's entirely plausible that those events would have occured as they did because neither knew of their blood relationship. That's not perversion, that's circumstantial ignorance, and hardly a sin. If you can't forgive two memorable characters for having that, then I suggest you stop watching movies altogether. Lord knows what else might irk you.
B) I think your definition of passion is somewhat lacking.
C) If you were able to see the obvious which "obviously" I wasn't... (Kinda makes me wonder... if you think I can't see the obvious, why make an obvious statement? Hm? Oh well...) you would notice that there's nothing incestual about their relationship over the movies. Like, at all. And if you are having problems with the concept, I suggest Webster's dictionary. Wilkipedia works, too. And try reading some Western classics sometimes. Might see similar situations but on a different scale, and those actually qualify as incest.
D) And just who did you talk to that was bothered by the scene? Hardcore old Puritans?
Originally posted by Mr Parker
just ruins the whole thing and I have spoken to many many people over the years that felt the same thing that them being brothers and sisters just ruined the whole thing in Jedi.
You always say things like that. You always said you knew about loads of people who hated the organic webbing in Spider-Man with a firey passion of a thousand suns.
I've done my rounds all over the internet in my time, looked on many a message board, because I'm a fan. I haven't seen THAT MANY that think like you do on these sorts of matters. Sure, I've seen many who don't like the webshooters - but most understand their existence and forgive the moviemakers for doing what they did. Same goes for Star Wars fans and the whole Luke and Leia crap.
I understand your point about the Leia-sister thing being a bit continuity-scrambling, but it can be easily forgiven due to the innocent nature of both Luke and Leia, and the circumstances involved not only in the movie, but also because Lucas had no choice but to keep Luke and Leia's true relationship open enough, because if he did get sequels to do, he would still be able to act upon the original script.
And as for Luke enjoying the kiss - so would you. He didn't know Leia was his sister. It would only been incest if Obi-Wan told him he was her brother, then he went back to the rebel ship and planted one on her.
And, depending on how you could interpret the scene, Luke may have OVEREXAGERATED his smugness in order to annoy Han even more.
many star wars fans felt insulted by it
Since when? 'Many' as in 'three'? 'Many' as in 'most'? No, MOST Star Wars fans know that having LUke and Leia bro and sis was the plan from the start.
Originally posted by Red Superfly
You always say things like that. You always said you knew about loads of people who hated the organic webbing in Spider-Man with a firey passion of a thousand suns.I've done my rounds all over the Internet in my time, looked on many a message board, because I'm a fan. I haven't seen THAT MANY that think like you do on these sorts of matters. Sure, I've seen many who don't like the web-shooters - but most understand their existence and forgive the moviemakers for doing what they did. Same goes for Star Wars fans and the whole Luke and Leia crap.
I understand your point about the Leia-sister thing being a bit continuity-scrambling, but it can be easily forgiven due to the innocent nature of both Luke and Leia, and the circumstances involved not only in the movie, but also because Lucas had no choice but to keep Luke and Leia's true relationship open enough, because if he did get sequels to do, he would still be able to act upon the original script.
And as for Luke enjoying the kiss - so would you. He didn't know Leia was his sister. It would only been incest if Obi-Wan told him he was her brother, then he went back to the rebel ship and planted one on her.
And, depending on how you could interpret the scene, Luke may have OVEREXAGERATED his smugness in order to annoy Han even more.
Since when? 'Many' as in 'three'? 'Many' as in 'most'? No, MOST Star Wars fans know that having LUke and Leia bro and sis was the plan from the start.
Okay this will be my last post to you on this matter because I simply stated what I would have done differently with the way Jedi ended,this thread isn't to debate that its to say what all you would have done differently and that is for sure one of them.and you sound as though you have done an everyday door to door search of every person alive when you say you have done a search on websites and have not seen that many who are disgusted with the web-shooters like myself.Well MY experience from going to other websites is that the fan base is pretty much split down the middle 50/50 on that.I think proof of the fact that there are thousands out there that are pissed about it is in the may 2002 issue of TV guide they were talking about how there is an outrage heated debate among fans on Internet sites of people who were pissed about the change.anyone with logic or common sense knows they were only not included because of sheer laziness, nothing more. :roll eyes: The ones that forgive them are just people who will accept any kind of spider-man movie no matter how crappy it is and are just happy to finally see a spiderman film on the screen.
As far as Luke and Leia is concerned,so what if it wasn't incest? thats the message many people thought when they saw Return Of the Jedi was ewww incest!!!! I know for a fact that there are many people out there that thought the same thing because my best friends dad told me that when him and his wife saw it,when it was announced in the movie that they were brothers and sisters after remembering what happened in Empire Strikes Back he told me his wife was the one that pointed that out to him,he said that his wife looked at him and said-What do you think of that?????? and thats when "He" said to me-Talk about incest among the family.As I mentioned previously,I have spoken to many people over the years in real life who thought the same way.Just look at the 1997 issue of USA TODAY when Jedi was re released,in that article the writer talks about how many star wars fans found Jedi unlike its two predecessors.to be a disappointment and one reason they mentioned was the way the whole sky walker family saga was wrapped up-meaning they also did not like the idea of Luke and Leia being brother and sisters.Sure there probably are not that many people out there like myself who hated Jedi mostly for that,but there ARE countless people out there that agree with me on that who also thought it was completely stupid.Hate to break the news to you but the net doesn't account for all the fans out there,thats being just plain ignorant to say that most fans have no problem with it just by saying what you have seen on the net. 🙄
Maybe that last sentence sounded a little rude and I apologize if it did but I hate that old tired and lame defense of -from what I have seen on the net people are not that unhappy about it. Because thats a lame defense of something to say that because AGAIN the net DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR EVERYBODY OUT THERE.
Originally posted by Mr Parker
AGAIN the net DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR EVERYBODY OUT THERE.
Sure, the internet doesn't account for everyone, I never said that it did. I said I don't know anyone that has taken to heart just as much as you have. I should have mnetioned the fact these count people I know out of the internet, which is like, all of my friends, my family, and their friends, even strangers I have talked to in the past.
I'm a huge Star Wars fan, but the fact that Leia and Luke are brother and sister truly doesn't bother me that much. It's like Lucas has slapped you in the face or something. Let it go man. It really isn't incest.
I can see your point, I've said that before, but it really doesn't bother me. It's not incest to me. I wasn't beaten as a child and I didn't follow the ways of Adolf Hitler, so I'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to characters making very human mistakes.
Well of course theres not that many people that took it to heart as much as I have but you cant tell me that you havent come across people that have at least told you they did not enjoy jedi like they did the first two and that some of them havent told you that was one thing among other things they thought was stupid in Jedi.If you are saying that then I simply dont believe you because I have run into many people over the years that even though it wasnt as big a deal to them as it was me,they also thought that was a real stupid idea of Lucas's he came up with to put that in Jedi.
I haven't talked to a soul that speaks ill of ROTJ. Not saying they aren't out there, but then again there are always people who dislike any one thing in life. Some people swear the sky isn't blue, too. Don't see me giving them the benefit of the doubt.
And I don't think ROTJ was half as bad as you're insinuating, so I think this is where we agree to disagree and leave it at that.
And it's not incest. I had to say that.
yeah I agree that its time to agree to disagree and leave it at that because neither one of us are going to change the opinions of the other.All I got to say on that is its really strange that you havent talked to a soul that speaks ill of Jedi because I have come across so many people over the years that told me the same thing that they were very dissapointed with Jedi and how it was all wrapped up,that it did not have the same magic and wonderful feeling for them that the first two did.I will admit I HAVE come across some that have said they liked Jedi the best of the 3 but the majority usually feel the same way I do about it and its just the ones I come across that liked Jedi the best as people who did not think the whole Luke and Leia brother and sister thing wasnt corny and stupid.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I haven't talked to a soul that speaks ill of ROTJ. Not saying they aren't out there, but then again there are always people who dislike any one thing in life. Some people swear the sky isn't blue, too. Don't see me giving them the benefit of the doubt.And I don't think ROTJ was half as bad as you're insinuating, so I think this is where we agree to disagree and leave it at that.
And it's not incest. I had to say that.
Err, sorry, but tha IS odd. ROTJ is very famously by far the least well regarded of the original 3 (and still my least favourite of all of them).
That being said, we have had plenty of ROTJ debates already in other threads, so let's try and focus on the topic here thanks.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I think a fitting ending would be Obi Wan coming back to life and whupping Luke's ass for being weak. Then he could whup Vader's ass for letting his son get zapped. And then he could, with the help of Force ghost Yoda, whup the emperor's ass for being ugly.And then, while the credits roll, you all find out I am the most ultimate evil Sith lord.
You are the most evil sith lord! Then I offer you my services and loyalty.(just dont choke me the life insurance quote i got working under Lord Vader was astronomical)
but it should have ended with Vader letting lukes lightsaber hit the emperor then he'd kill luke.Admiral Piett would crush Admiral Ackbar the shield would stay up because i arrived with a special squad of Dark Troopers killed all the Ewoks and Han.The Empire would win the rebels would be noo more and Vader would take off his suit and look the same as Hadeyn. The Empire would grow strong and I would become Lord Vaders right hand man and be premoted to supreme moff.
Alas its not to be after Grand Admiral Thrawns death (my boss) i went to Cato Nemodia and lived off stolen riches,(I was worth £$132474503246583704967379657694376093767438.0000000000000 credits....not bad for a looter)
Yeah it is widely regarded as the weakest of all three Star Wars movies, I'll give you that.
I used to love ROTJ the most, but now I enjoy the first two a lot more. I adore ANH, I think ESB is the best film ever made, and I think Return Of The Jedi is simply "great". Its certainly the weakest of the Original Star Wars films, but it's a masterpiece comparred to the prequels and 90% of movies I've ever seen.
That said, I guess it comes down to personal preference. I like having these debates. The world would be a lot duller a place if it weren't for people like Mr Parker shaking things up a bit. I have friends who like Jedi the most (especially people a lot younger, like my lil bro), I have friends who don't like Jedi as much as the other two (like me), and there are people I know who don't like Jedi at all.
There are many reasons why people were a bit dissapointed with Jedi. Some people were expecting more from Vaders "good turn" at the end. Some were expecting more clarity (like Ush), some were turned off by the Ewoks (mainly down to the ages they saw the movies at), and some were turned off by the increased amount of muppet-like creatures, and silliness (like Boba Fetts 3-Stooges-esque demise). I don't think anyone I know has ever taken the "incest" aspect to new heights of controversy though.
Oh well, to each his own. At the end of the day, we should just agree to disagree. The fact that we are debating Return Of The Jedi's credibility shows that it failed somewhat anyway. It didn't strike that nerve with everyone that the first two did, I'll give you that. I think it was down to the fact I saw all three Star Wars movies when I was very, very young, and so I hold some bias towards those movies, because I never found anything wrong with Return of The Jedi. I think my youth made me accept it a lot easier, whereas if I was a teen or if I saw it for the first time now, I may have held ROTJ with utter contempt, but that's not how things played out. To each his own.
Im the same i used to like ROTJ best but now its ESB another wierd thing i used to only semmy like the new ones but now i like them alot more and EpII is the one i watch most often. I started reading the EU novels last year and i never liked them before to. But now they're among the best ive read....Odd
I can watch the new ones, but they frustrate me sometimes. Too much wasting time and not enough character development. I think Episode II was slightly better than I, but the duels in Ep II are absolutely terrible. The only fight worth anything is Obi-Wan vs Jango.
Argh, went off topic slightly there.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, sorry, but tha IS odd. ROTJ is very famously by far the least well regarded of the original 3 (and still my least favourite of all of them).That being said, we have had plenty of ROTJ debates already in other threads, so let's try and focus on the topic here thanks.
you know i was going to take mick there but i noticed your modie status so i stoped myself, I made an enemy of Raz because i spoilied the end of KOTORII for him (of which im still eternally sorry) so i could do without falling out with another 😄
Originally posted by Red Superfly
I can watch the new ones, but they frustrate me sometimes. Too much wasting time and not enough character development. I think Episode II was slightly better than I, but the duels in Ep II are absolutely terrible. The only fight worth anything is Obi-Wan vs Jango.Argh, went off topic slightly there.
OH MY GOD, HEAVENS HE WENT OFF TOPIC OH THE CHAOS THAT WILL ENSUE.
quick back on topic yes...... em look ubove for my ending
Well, debates take shape like flowing currents. You can't control them all the time and there's times when you shouldn't. Things have winded down here, and we're all talking about things that we would like to talk about. The topic title is still visible to all and I don't think discussing ROTJ in any way defies the topic because it is and I quote...
"How owuld oyu have prefered the original trilogy to have ended?"
Hm. I'm too lazy to get those typos. But yeah, so the key word is ended.... or end. The last movie. That would be ROTJ. And while I will say it did lack the magic of the previous two films (ESB is my favorite too) I honestly haven't heard anyone bash the movie. Only the Ewoks. Those things should be napalmed. And the digitally remastered scene with teh dancing whatchamacallit was just over the top. I cringe when I sit through that scene.
And I agree with Red. Not enough character development, and the only good fight was with Jango and Obi. I realize that now more than I did before.
No, sorry, this is not a request. No more 'was ROTJ any good?' talk in this thread. I reject your interpretation of that being on-topic and that is the end of it. Debate ROTJ in other threads; talk here about particular closing plotlines you might have wanted to see, like the example in the original post.