Originally posted by carver9
The Surfer fight had nothing to do with him losing power... he was already damaged before Surfer faced him. We are not saying that Surfer power had an impact on Cable, what we or I am saying is that Cable was damaged when Surfer fought him in which he was damaged. His powers were killing him... eating away at his body... why wouldn't you think he wasn't at 100%?
I'll respond better when I get home.. Lol's
Originally posted by Naija boy
Your analogy here is not accurate at all. Tearing apart someones brain from the atomic level is not only more complex, but also considerably more deft and precise than clamping ones capilliaries.....and by considerably i mean by several orders of magnitude. Atoms are measured in picometres. Capillaries are measured in micrometres...which pretty ,much says it all regarding the precision needed to affect them. Hence manipulating something on the atomic level requires a level of precision and deftness unbelievably greater than doing so to capillaries. Your grenade analogy falls extremely flat because, Cable isnt just affecting the structure as a whole with his powers as is the case with the grenade, but is affecting each individual atom which susbequently causes the degradation of the whole structure.Moreover, the emphasis on the particular strategy of capillary clamping is being overplayed All it really represents is the viability of attacks in the same vein and Cable shouldnt have to be shown doing the exact same thing when he has been shown to perform attacks in a similar vein that are even more complex..........more precise....and more deft as you would like to describe it.
I don't think demolecularizing or atomizing someone is a precision type exercise . Complex, sure but deft?... I'm not yet sold until I get an idea of his perception level.
If he uses picometer level perception and not simply visualization to perform his TK, then I'd agree. Otherwise atomizing someone is more a power move than a deftness move.
More a function of power (given the breaking apart of structural forces), than a function of pure precision. Again I think visualization is playing a major part in this and not micro radar senses.
If he has some kind of radar sense that let's him literally pick out single molecules to manip then I'd agree.
Originally posted by Allankles
I don't think demolecularizing or atomizing someone is a precision type exercise . Complex, sure but deft?... I'm not yet sold until I get an idea of his perception level.If he uses picometer level perception and not simply [b]visualization
to perform his TK, then I'd agree. Otherwise atomizing someone is more a power move than a deftness move.More a function of power (given the breaking apart of structural forces), than a function of pure precision. Again I think visualization is playing a major part in this and not micro radar senses.
If he has some kind of radar sense that let's him literally pick out single molecules to manip then I'd agree. [/B]
err....ok, im not sure how in the world you can try to denigrate the deftness of what cable is doing based on such arbitrary criteria. So if he doesnt have micro-radar senses then despite the fact that he is manipulating the fundamental building blocks of matter the deftness of the feat is in question? what? That is an enormous non sequitur.
I mean, does black have micrometer level perceptions (what?), if not does it suddenly take away from the deftness of the feat he performed? Atomizing something, through sheer power, ala blasting them to atoms is not at all the same as tearing them apart at the atomic level with tk. Stop conflating the two processes. The latter takes an unbelievable level of precision and deftness as well as power because u are manipulating the individual at the atomic level.
Moreover with Cable were not limited to just taking apart things from the atomic level which even further nullifies ur flimsy "structural forces" argument. He has been shown to affect the individual atoms of his opponents in other exotic ways as well like him increasing the vibrations of each atom in a persons arm etc. This is once more a precision and deftness feat that far exceeds blacks capillary feat.
Originally posted by Allankleswhat about exodus recreating Xavier's brain atom by atom and hellion sensing atoms touched by his tk pulse and moving it through the empty spaces between the core and the electrons so it phases through stuff to hit targets' behind. would you consider these fine control enough? would you say that hellion or exodus have more fine control than SNG or that we cant say for sure that SNG si above them in fine control departament?
I don't think demolecularizing or atomizing someone is a precision type exercise . Complex, sure but deft?... I'm not yet sold until I get an idea of his perception level.If he uses picometer level perception and not simply [b]visualization
to perform his TK, then I'd agree. Otherwise atomizing someone is more a power move than a deftness move.More a function of power (given the breaking apart of structural forces), than a function of pure precision. Again I think visualization is playing a major part in this and not micro radar senses.
If he has some kind of radar sense that let's him literally pick out single molecules to manip then I'd agree. [/B]
and besides didnt cable reesctructure the things he and surfer destroyed, repairing the damage on the mollecular level? there is also the matter of him stopping 2000 detonating nuclear warheads with his shields and then funneling all the energy and radiation outside the planet
Originally posted by 753cable definitely is. His fine control is unconscious at this point from technovirus control. Even when knocked out he is still molecule by molecule separating the Technovirus from his body.
what about exodus recreating Xavier's brain atom by atom and hellion sensing atoms touched by his tk pulse and moving it through the empty spaces between the core and the electrons so it phases through stuff to hit targets' behind. would you consider these fine control enough? would you say that hellion or exodus have more fine control than SNG or that we cant say for sure that SNG si above them in fine control departament?
Originally posted by Uriel005
cable definitely is. His fine control is unconscious at this point from technovirus control. Even when knocked out he is still molecule by molecule separating the Technovirus from his body.
that would be cellular level, whereas Exodus was manipulating atoms
Exodus has better TK matter manip feats than does Cable. manipulating a hellicarrier into a cerebro, for instance.
Originally posted by 753
hellion sensing atoms touched by his tk pulse and moving it through the empty spaces between the core and the electrons so it phases through stuff to hit targets' behind.
really? that is one HELL of a feat. maybe best one i've heard yet. you got a scan or issue number for that feat? that's one i'd love to see.
Originally posted by leonidasx-men legacy 243. pretty good character development. he pahsed the wave through hope and a human girl to hit omega-sentinel behind them, then procedeed to stomp OS after she disposed of the rest of the x-men with unexpected countermeasures to their powers.
really? that is one HELL of a feat. maybe best one i've heard yet. you got a scan or issue number for that feat? that's one i'd love to see.
Originally posted by inimalistCable has manipulated molecules, pretty sure he has manipulated aims a well, but can't recall the specific instance.
that would be cellular level, whereas Exodus was manipulating atomsExodus has better TK matter manip feats than does Cable. manipulating a hellicarrier into a cerebro, for instance.
Originally posted by Naija boy
err....ok, im not sure how in the world you can try to denigrate the deftness of what cable is doing based on such arbitrary criteria. So if he doesnt have micro-radar senses then despite the fact that he is manipulating the fundamental building blocks of matter the deftness of the feat is in question? what? That is an enormous non sequitur.I mean, does black have micrometer level perceptions (what?), if not does it suddenly take away from the deftness of the feat he performed? Atomizing something, through sheer power, ala blasting them to atoms is not at all the same as tearing them apart at the atomic level with tk. Stop conflating the two processes. The latter takes an unbelievable level of precision and deftness as well as power because u are manipulating the individual at the atomic level.
Moreover with Cable were not limited to just taking apart things from the atomic level which even further nullifies ur flimsy "structural forces" argument. He has been shown to affect the individual atoms of his opponents in other exotic ways as well like him increasing the vibrations of each atom in a persons arm etc. This is once more a precision and deftness feat that far exceeds blacks capillary feat.
Sorry for the belated reply. I didn't see the new tag on the thread titles on my profile so I thought no one had replied.
It's not a non sequirtir. Breaking down the fundamental structural forces of matter invovles tremendous power. It's enormously complex but there's no deftness invovled.
It's like calling a nuke deft, it's complex both in its contruction (mechanisms and trigger) but it isn't deft.
And who said Black had a radar sense? He visualized his blood vessels we can assume the same as Cable. But unlike liquifying someone's brain, that was deft.
You don't seem to know the precise definition of deft.
deft
adj. deft·er, deft·est
Quick and skillful; adroit. See Synonyms at dexterous.
deft
adj
quick and neat in movement; nimble; dexterous
[C13 (in the sense: gentle): see daft]
deftly adv
deftness
Essentially blowing up someone's brain is neither neat, gentle or clean. It's messy, it involves a lot more energy, it's the equivalent of a grenade to MB's acupuncture needle, in telekinetic terms.
And I already dealt with the whole point about approach and strategy. Cable has never used such a strategy, based on how he atomizes and liquifies people in his "god" mode, it's obviously not something he thinks about. His more of a TK nuker, yes highly complex in its process but not deft by definition.
Originally posted by 753
what about exodus recreating Xavier's brain atom by atom and hellion sensing atoms touched by his tk pulse and moving it through the empty spaces between the core and the electrons so it phases through stuff to hit targets' behind. would you consider these fine control enough? would you say that hellion or exodus have more fine control than SNG or that we cant say for sure that SNG si above them in fine control departament?and besides didnt cable reesctructure the things he and surfer destroyed, repairing the damage on the mollecular level? there is also the matter of him stopping 2000 detonating nuclear warheads with his shields and then funneling all the energy and radiation outside the planet
The Hellion one is definitely a result of tremendous precision since he was sensing the atoms with some kind of extra sensory ability attached to his TK. Usually TK alone doesn't give you that kind of extra sensory input.
Restructuring matter via molecular manipulation can be a result of visualization, since many beings without pure TK can do this, and they don't sense individual molecules or atoms to do this.
I'm not even arguing his reconstruction feats, I'm arguing how he's defeated opponents while in his uber mode.
Different discussion. I'm not arguing his overall TK control, I'm arguing about how much his combat specific atomizing and demolecularization is down to precision vs essentially a TK mininuke.
Another thing that needs to be pointed out (unless it already has and I just missed it) is that ultimately, the capillary squeeze failed. Black temporarily put down Supes, but even after ColdCast topped it off with a devastating blast, Clark still pulled through and beat the whole Elites team. Cable clearly has the chops to pull off the same move Black did (though, honestly, it's the kind of thing that I think would get relegated to PIS if Black had more appearances), but that in and of itself doesn't mean he could beat superman.
Originally posted by Allankles
Sorry for the belated reply. I didn't see the new tag on the thread titles on my profile so I thought no one had replied.It's not a non sequirtir. Breaking down the fundamental structural forces of matter invovles tremendous power. It's enormously complex but there's no deftness invovled.
Err yes it is a huge non-sequitur. You mentioned that if he had micro-radar senses it would suggest deftness, when there is no necessary logical connection between the aforemetioned micro-radar senses and the quality of deftness. This is further evidenced in ur admission that manchester black has none such senses, but continued insistence on the deftness of his feat as opposed to cables. Hence the criteria you injected was entirely arbitrary and quite irrelevant in the determination of deftness. Moreover, you are falling prey to the over simplification fallacy. Thats because you assume that the breaking down of structural forces can only be wrought with power and not deftness as well. This is just not the case. Cable taking something apart at the atomic level with his tk isnt analogous to something being simply blown up. He is manipulating the individual atoms in the structure which takes an extreme level of deftness. Your claim otherwise is bordering on the nonsensical. What Cable is doing is comparable to a person taking apart a piece of fabric, by seperating all the individual threads that make up the fabric as opposed to simply forcefully ripping it apart. To claim an action like the former requires no deftness is nothing short of absurd...
It's like calling a nuke deft, it's complex both in its contruction (mechanisms and trigger) but it isn't deft.
All you are doing is bringing up this false analogy and running with it when it is an entirely innaccurate description of the situation. Firstly a nuke is a physical object. What we are talking about here is a process of deconstruction carried out. The two things are not relatable at all. Now if you are talking about the damage output of a nuke then you are once again conflating Cable damaging the structure by telekinetically affecting each individual atom in it with an explosive attack damaging to the structure as a whole. The two are not the same in any way, shape, form, or capacity and your analogy is thus inapplicable.
Essentially blowing up someone's brain is neither neat, gentle or clean. It's messy, it involves a lot more energy, it's the equivalent of a grenade to MB's acupuncture needle, in telekinetic terms. And I already dealt with the whole point about approach and strategy. Cable has never used such a strategy, based on how he atomizes and liquifies people in his "god" mode, it's obviously not something he thinks about. His more of a TK nuker, yes highly complex in its process but not deft by definition
You are clearly not listening. I mentioned in my other post how atomizing aka blowing something to atoms through sheer power is NOT the same as tearing it apart at the atomic level with TK. One is manipulating atoms individually and one isnt. Hence while one is indeed "messy" and not deft, that has no relation to what Cable is doing when he telekinetically takes something apart at the atomic level which is extremely deft. More conflation on your part. Posting the definition of deft is not helpful if you are only going to ignore it and not bother applying it objectively. Furthermore I am not arguing that what Cable did to deadpool is a sign of his deftness (because there he more than likely just caused deadpools head to explode telekinetically),im arguing that in principle tearing something apart at the atomic level (which Cable has done before) requires an extreme level of deftness
And no you have not dealt with anything as to put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, i mentioned how Cable has even increased the vibration of atoms in an opponents and done similar very deft molecular manipulation tk feats against opponents thus cementing that he is indeed very deft with his TK and has the propensity to use it in such deft ways in battle and is not at all merely a Tk nuker (an absolutely false observation)..
Originally posted by Simbon
. Cable clearly has the chops to pull off the same move Black did (though, honestly, it's the kind of thing that I think would get relegated to PIS if Black had more appearances), but that in and of itself doesn't mean he could beat superman.
This is reasonable. It is quite undeniable that Cable can pull of the same move as black and that attacks in the same vein are viable on the forum. Whether he can beat supes however is obviously up for debate seeing as superman has other powers which cable will have to contend with.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Err yes it is a huge non-sequitur. You mentioned that if he had micro-radar senses it would suggest deftness, when there is no necessary logical connection between the aforemetioned micro-radar senses and the quality of deftness. This is further evidenced in ur admission that manchester black has none such senses, but continued insistence on the deftness of his feat as opposed to cables. Hence the criteria you injected was entirely arbitrary and quite irrelevant in the determination of deftness. Moreover, you are falling prey to the over simplification fallacy. Thats because you assume that the breaking down of structural forces can only be wrought with power and not deftness as well. This is just not the case. Cable taking something apart at the atomic level with his tk isnt analogous to something being simply blown up. He is manipulating the individual atoms in the structure which takes an extreme level of deftness. Your claim otherwise is bordering on the nonsensical. What Cable is doing is comparable to a person taking apart a piece of fabric, by seperating all the individual threads that make up the fabric as opposed to simply forcefully ripping it apart. To claim an action like the former requires no deftness is nothing short of absurd...All you are doing is bringing up this false analogy and running with it when it is an entirely innaccurate description of the situation. Firstly a nuke is a physical object. What we are talking about here is a process of deconstruction carried out. The two things are not relatable at all. Now if you are talking about the damage output of a nuke then you are once again conflating [B] Cable damaging the structure by telekinetically affecting each individual atom in it
with an explosive attack damaging to the structure as a whole. The two are not the same in any way, shape, form, or capacity and your analogy is thus inapplicable.You are clearly not listening. I mentioned in my other post how atomizing aka blowing something to atoms through sheer power is NOT the same as tearing it apart at the atomic level with TK. One is manipulating atoms individually and one isnt. Hence while one is indeed "messy" and not deft, that has no relation to what Cable is doing when he telekinetically takes something apart at the atomic level which is extremely deft. More conflation on your part. Posting the definition of deft is not helpful if you are only going to ignore it and not bother applying it objectively. Furthermore I am not arguing that what Cable did to deadpool is a sign of his deftness (because there he more than likely just caused deadpools head to explode telekinetically),im arguing that in principle tearing something apart at the atomic level (which Cable has done before) requires an extreme level of deftness
And no you have not dealt with anything as to put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, i mentioned how Cable has even increased the vibration of atoms in an opponents and done similar very deft molecular manipulation tk feats against opponents thus cementing that he is indeed very deft with his TK and has the propensity to use it in such deft ways in battle and is not at all merely a Tk nuker (an absolutely false observation).. [/B]
Again you failed to grasp the precise definition of deft. Yes whether or not MB has a radar sense is besides the point guy, I don't know why you can't grasp why I brought up radar sense.
As in precise perception and therefore manipulation of molecules or atoms vs visualization, manipulation of those same molecules or atoms but without actually perceiving them or sensing them with any kind of precision. It makes a whole world of difference.
Deftness is not related to mere precision but neatness, nimbleness, gentility and efficiency. What Cable does in combat with that TK is not deft by definition.
If you're going to make a big deal about vibrating molecules or even atoms you better show that it is a result of precise manipulation based on being able to sense and affect even individual molecules or atoms, otherwise you're just hyping a feat that has more to do with power and the visualization necessary to create or break down something with that power.
Basically you don't need to be able to sense individual molecules or atoms to manipulate matter. Plenty of characters from cosmic type beings, to magicians can do this, and many of them don't have the perception to sense the individual molecules and atoms that they're rearranging.
I don't see how I haven't made myself clear.
If the Flash vibrates someones molecules and destroys their body in anyway that's not deft. Deftness is about neatness, gentleness, nimbleness.
Vibrating someones molecules, atomizing or demolecularizing someone is not deft by definition. Learn the definitions.
And vibrating someones molecules = liquifying and demolecularizing. "Nuking" is just the colloquial way to put it.
And get back to me when you're actually arguing with the proper definition of deft in mind, in relation to Cable's combat feats and (not anything else). Writing words like "vibrating" as opposed to "demolecularizing" doesn't change anything.