Bullsh!t Vs Lying: The Truth Will Out?

PLEASE NOTE: I was going to post this in the philosophy forum, but it encapsulates everything, so I thought it would be more suited to 'The General Discussion Forum'.

Who just said that all philosophy could be considered bullsh!t? Hey? You? Huh? Wat? Anyway...

Harry Frankfurt, one of the world's most esteemed moral philosophers and a professor in the hallowed halls of Princeton University, has recently published a book on the philosophical implications of bullshit.

He argues that bullshit is an entity in itself and is different from lying. He states: "The liar knows what the truth is and he is concerned with trying to keep people away from the truth, this shows a respect for the truth and the value of truth. Whereas the bullshitter does not care at all."

Frankfurt argues that bullshit has a far more harmful impact on modern life. It is Frankfurt's belief that bullshit is far more dangerous than simple out-and-out lying. He believes that whereas lying can be negated by stating the factual truth of a matter, bullshit is is more difficult to destroy as it is compounded by elements of truth and personal point-of-view. He offers the marketing media - in both commercial and political arenas - as bastions of bullshit in the manipulative ways consumers are encouraged to 'believe' the quality of a product. He also believes that this has the detrimental affect of encouraging people to bullshit in their daily lives. Indeed, I'm sure everyone knows someone who is known to embellish the truth...I have an acquaintence who always has a story to tell about how he once spotted Tiger Woods in a gym in NYC or had a beer with some baseball player in LA or was called into a wave by Kelly Slater at Pipeline or is friend's with a popular Taiwanese singer...blah, blah, blah...

Anyway, what do you think about bullshit? Do you believe it to be different from lying? How do you differentiate the two? Are you a bullshitter? Do you know someone who is? How does it make you feel to be subjected to bullshit? Are there different levels of bullshit? Was Bush lying about WMDs in Iraq or was he bullshitting? Was John Kerry's attempt to build up his security credentials by citing his Vietnam experience an example of the genre? What other examples can you think of?

Talk, type and discuss...This is the nature of the thread.

I agree and I like that idea, and yes, it is different from lying.

I dont think a lying shows the respect for the truth, but i believe it deffinitivly shows the value.

The 'personal point of view' - it is the most common statement people use to excuse their bullshit.

As for Bush, I beieve he was bullshitting, for the simple reason that he wanted to go to war with Iraq regardless of what he had to say to do so. The fact that Iraq had weapons at some point was used as a 'truth' now, coupled with other rediculous propositions.

This is a cool idea - I'll think about it some more.

Bullshit: Social Security has a problem and the (only) way to save it is Privatization.

Truth: Social Security has a problem, but Privatization will only exacerbate the problem and also cause massive budget deficits.

See, there's a kernel of truth in the bullshit. Sure, Social Security has a problem. Baby Boomers retiring will cause a glut in the payouts, which will drain the fund at an accelerated rate. It's not as big a problem as privatization proponents say, but yes, there is indeed a problem. There are many ways to fix it (for instance, witholding SS taxes from the full salary as opposed to only the first ~90k) but "private accounts" where the employer does not have the matching funds obligation (or so it seems) is a poor solution.

Or:

BS: ELF blew up that snowmobile lodge in Colorado.

Truth: That snowmobile lodge in Colorado blew up, apparently a propane explosion, but we don't know the cause yet.

As you can see, there is a hard kernel of truth to all BS. The trick is to strain out the lies and work from the truth.

Thats already established in the first post - that bullshit works with the bits of truth and personal opinion.

Originally posted by BullitNutz
Truth: Social Security has a problem, but Privatization will only exacerbate the problem and also cause massive budget deficits

^ This could easily be classed as bullshit.

Also, like Lil' B observed...Your final conclusion is simply a repeat of what I've already stated. Thanks for the examples though...

when somthing is claimed or insinuated to be true, it is a lie no matter what title it is given. Bullshitters may not tell threatning or even hurtfull lies, but they are still lies. There is only one kind of truth, not partially true, but completely true. Truth interwined with lies, is ultimately a lie.

c'mon people...i dont have the patience to read long posts

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
when somthing is claimed or insinuated to be true, it is a lie no matter what title it is given. Bullshitters may not tell threatning or even hurtfull lies, but they are still lies. There is only one kind of truth, not partially true, but completely true. Truth interwined with lies, is ultimately a lie.

Are you denying that the truth can be manipulated?

yes. manipulation requires conscious reasoning.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
yes. manipulation requires conscious reasoning.

It is an absolute truism that 'manipulation requires conscious reasoning', but that has nothing to do with your denial of it in relation to truth!

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
when somthing is claimed or insinuated to be true, it is a lie no matter what title it is given. Bullshitters may not tell threatning or even hurtfull lies, but they are still lies. There is only one kind of truth, not partially true, but completely true. Truth interwined with lies, is ultimately a lie.

Only one kind of truth? Well if you're already going to mention the 'truth' argument, my comment is that I dont think so - there is no such thing as an absolute truth. Everything is subjective and an observation open to interpretation.

What about the 'White Lie'?

Saw this dude on the Daily Show. Good ideas, makes lots of sense.

I think what Frankfurt is saying is that a liar knows he/she is not telling the truth, whereas a bullshitter believes so much in his/her use of the truth that it is the truth.

Also, it is true that extravagent acts of bullshit are obvious, but others can be more cryptic. This has the affect of making people believe bullshit...a la 'evidence' of WMDs in Iraq...

MC Mike, are you talking about the Jon Stewart show? If yes, was it the international edition on CNN or a local US one? I only get the international one...

Originally posted by Reborn Again
What about the 'White Lie'?

You have missed the point of the discussion completely. I doubt if you even read the original post.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Only one kind of truth? Well if you're already going to mention the 'truth' argument, my comment is that I dont think so - there is no such thing as an absolute truth. Everything is subjective and an observation open to interpretation.

Your alive. i like rock and roll. I never met you, but i have shared thoughts with you. The sky is Blue.

How are these subjective? There is truth, and only absolute truth. The only exception here would be ignorance, but even then it is only absolute in the person.

Manipulation is lying. you are distorting facts to withold somthing or gain a reaction.

I just kind of wonder why he chooses to analyze the term bullshit...

With the different ways that it gets used in the context of a conversation, I would think that a better term could be used to represent the idea of "bullshit"

That aside....good article. It kind of gets the brain stirring. Lil, nice addition on your first post as well.

and Ou Be...can we take the increased size of text down a page. Maybe to 4 or 6 instead of 12?

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Your alive. i like rock and roll. I never met you, but i have shared thoughts with you. The sky is Blue.

How are these subjective? There is truth, and only absolute truth. The only exception here would be ignorance, but even then it is only absolute in the person.

Manipulation is lying. you are distorting facts to withold somthing or gain a reaction.

Those are all observations. The sky is not always blue, and again that is only an observation - colour-blind person doesnt see the same blue.

In the 19th century it was ''scientifically true'' that black people are inferiour to white people. It was called a ''fact'' and it was then accepted as the truth.
However, today such truth does not apply any longer. Nothing is an absolute truth.
Since you have never met me, you dont know who it is that you claim is alive - there maybe more of us under the name of lil bitchiness. Of course they are subjective.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
You have missed the point of the discussion completely. I doubt if you even read the original post.

Oh, I read your bull$hit post. (I'm not calling your post bull$hit). What I'm saying is bull$hiting can be helpful in daily life. Bull$hiting people can advance a career or save a marriage. Embellishment is a form of bull$hitting, however its not necessarily its only standard. Lying to a person can also be helpful. It's an extension of the truth to a certain degree that the truth is present within the lie but can't necessarily be distinguished. So to embellish a lie and to bull$hit your way through an experience is creating a certain elementary truth therefore forumulating a 'white lie' or a sort. We all need to 'bull$hit' or 'lie' in our lives to get anywhere. If we told the'truth' all the time -- we'd probably me miserable.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I agree and I like that idea, and yes, it is different from lying.

I dont think a lying shows the respect for the truth, but i believe it deffinitivly shows the value.

The 'personal point of view' - it is the most common statement people use to excuse their bullshit.

As for Bush, I beieve he was bullshitting, for the simple reason that he wanted to go to war with Iraq regardless of what he had to say to do so. The fact that Iraq had weapons at some point was used as a 'truth' now, coupled with other rediculous propositions.

This is a cool idea - I'll think about it some more.

I also have to say that they are two different things.JM 😕