Iron Fist vs. Sabretooth

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Your hate boner never gets old vin

Maybe you need some Wolverithmetics in your life; it always brings you back here, after all... not to mention that you've finally learned how to save pics in your browser. We haven't forgotten what "D" in your username stands for 😉

But I heard you rather willingly betrayed us for those CBR cunts, eh? 😛

You believe Danny wins, that's fine, but it's a simple fact that Danny never quite managed to replicate the original feat against Creed; beating him with his bare hands while snowblind... and that little fact just might have something to do with Creed not being written as a character with superpowers back then, don't ya think?

Srank seems gone for good, Capt It Up ragequit KMC after losing a battlezone to some new guy, but I'd love to re-unite you with Jinzin; fasten your seat belts, we're gonna travel back in time to 2005 😂

I don't know why you think an exact replication of the fight should ever be expected. There was a specific setting, a specific handicap, and a first meeting. I would expect a powered Danny to not be blind again and for Creed to know who exactly he's fighting against. So the non-existence of a replication of that fight is an unextraordinary statement of fact.

But, y'know, a weakened Danny nearly clowned a few X-Men around that time. And that ain't his best feat either, just an analogous one. Neither was that Creed's worst feat either.

Originally posted by ODG
Enough with this "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990" myth. Danny while weakened and blind, beat him. Get over it. You didn't like =/= it didn't happen.

Originally posted by ODG
Danny would probably lose because I don't think he even has the Iron Fist anymore. I haven't read the latest issues though, so maybe I'm wrong.

It all seems to happen to fast, I'm not really up-to-date either. We're all old geezers.

You're probably referring to the time when Okoye earned the power of Iron Fist, yes?

Originally posted by ODG
I don't know why you think an exact replication of the fight should ever be expected. There was a specific setting, a specific handicap, and a first meeting. I would expect a powered Danny to not be blind again and for Creed to know who exactly he's fighting against. So the non-existence of a replication of that fight is an unextraordinary statement of fact.

He never came even close to performing as well against Sabretooth.

While the original fight had him winning despite the seemingly impossible odds.

We've had Danny hurting his fist on Creed's chin and needing plot device to win... or even failing to knock him out with his Iron Fist in their most recent tussle... which makes perfect sense, seeing how Creed is no longer just a big bloke with claws.

Sorry, this isn't 1977 anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
But, y'know, a weakened Danny nearly clowned a few X-Men around that time. And that ain't his best feat either, just an analogous one. Neither was that Creed's worst feat either.

Just an issue after that, yes.

And then his book got cancelled vin Coincidence?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He never came even close to performing as well against Sabretooth.

While the original fight had him winning despite the seemingly impossible odds.

We've had Danny hurting his fist on Creed's chin and needing plot device to win... or even failing to knock him out with his Iron Fist in their most recent tussle... which makes perfect sense, seeing how Creed is no longer just a big bloke with claws.

Sorry, this isn't 1977 anymore.

I will argue, however, against any notion that "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

Which is fine, as nobody here has ever tried to argue that.

Wolverine was first strongly hinted to have some sort of healing ability in 1978 --- which was officially confirmed in 1981.

For Creed, it was 1987.

Sabretooth's fight with Carol is an outlier, if we compare it to... well, any other of his showings during that period. And it still happened a couple of years after Danny beat his ass, keep that in mind.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Which is fine, as nobody here has ever tried to argue that.

80s =/= 90s 😉

Off-topic, you're still a thorbag, right?

Have you seen Love & Thunder? vin

^ Your equivocation over Sabretooth's fight with Ms. Marvel reveals enough for me. You've clearly recalled what I've pointed out in the other thread. This conversation has run it's course.

NO. Don't spoil it for me.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Your equivocation over Sabretooth's fight with Ms. Marvel reveals enough for me. You've clearly recalled what I've pointed out in the other thread. This conversation has run it's course.

Hey, you quoted yourself, so I decided to address it.

Originally posted by ODG
NO. Don't spoil it for me.

No worries, I don't intentionally spoil films to others.

Just see it before someone else does; spoiler tags are a rarity on KMC.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hey, you quoted yourself, so I decided to address it.

But if you want to constructively debate the point, I'll oblige. Why is Sabretooth's fight against Ms. Marvel an outlier compared to other showings in that period?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

You believe Danny wins, that's fine, but it's a simple fact that Danny never quite managed to replicate the original feat against Creed; beating him with his bare hands while snowblind... and that little fact just might have something to do with Creed not being written as a character with superpowers back then, don't ya think?

Agreed. 👆

It feels borderline trolling to hold showings from that era against Creed. He's just clearly at a different level than his original appearances, when he was just some vaguely savage dude in tune with his senses.

Back then, Creed was hospitalized for an extended period because of, essentially, some gashes on his face. It's just not the same character in terms of combat potency, and subsequent encounters with Danny/Victor support that.

Originally posted by ODG

I don't know why you think an exact replication of the fight should ever be expected. There was a specific setting, a specific handicap, and a first meeting. I would expect a powered Danny to not be blind again and for Creed to know who exactly he's fighting against. So the non-existence of a replication of that fight is an unextraordinary statement of fact.

I think the disagreement is more over the reason for it being an un-extraordinary statement of fact.

I'm trying not to misinterpret you here. Do you think Creed did not develop into a more powerful character since then, especially in regards to his healing factor?

Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm trying not to misinterpret you here. Do you think Creed did not develop into a more powerful character since then, especially in regards to his healing factor?

I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value.

Originally posted by ODG
Your previous post strikes me as IDLI, IDH.

Funny. I could say the same about your whole crusade against everything Wolverine-related vin

I can see how much you've missed it 😉

Originally posted by ODG
But if you want to constructively debate the point, I'll oblige. Why is Sabretooth's fight against Ms. Marvel an outlier compared to other showings in that period?

Because his power level in that book seemed higher than... anything else he's done back then.

The I-beam feat alone puts him in a different strength class than what we were shown before that comic, not to mention actually brawling with Carol for a while.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Agreed. 👆

It feels borderline trolling to hold showings from that era against Creed. He's just clearly at a different level than his original appearances, when he was just some vaguely savage dude in tune with his senses.

But you can't say you're surprised.

It's far more likely for Srank to rise up from his grave than ODG changing his ways.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Back then, Creed was hospitalized for an extended period because he couldn't heal gashes on his face. It's just not the same character in terms of combat potency, and subsequent encounters with Danny/Victor support that.

Correct:

Originally posted by ODG
Clearly, Danny developed into a more powerful character since then also. Barring the current storyline that few appear to even recognize as I'm the first one who brought it up. So I will request that you dispel the notion that I am ignoring Creed's subsequent history and everything beyond Creed's first fight with Danny.

I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value.

It doesn't have particularly significant value though. It shows Danny is more skilled, which is still true. But that issue wasn't really in dispute.

^ Bruh, I won't accuse you of moving the goalposts. But the issue is not whether either Danny or Sabretooth are more formidable than what they were portrayed in their first fight. The issue is the notion that you can dismiss that first fight as basically never happening because "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because his power level in that book seemed higher than... anything else he's done back then.

Therefore, Sabretooth's portrayals back then should be ignored because they're not comparable to what he subsequently showed...

Originally posted by ODG
The issue is the notion that you can dismiss that first fight as basically never happening because "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

1981 and 1987, not the nineties.

At least try to get that part right 😛

Originally posted by ODG
Therefore, Sabretooth's portrayals back then should be ignored because they're not comparable to what he subsequently showed...

One showing. Outlier for that era, as you know it.

Or perhaps you can think of any other showings from that time matching that performance? Creed sneaking up on Rogue and beating the crap out of her happened in 1987, fyi.

You should also keep in mind Ms Marvel #24 didn't actually get published... the final product got released in 1992 as "Marvel Super-Heroes".

PS. Church of Rand no longer exists on KMC, either 😉

Church of Rand found murdered by Okoye

No, no.

It was murdered years before Okoye... the menace known as

Spoiler:
cdtm

Originally posted by ODG
^ Bruh, I won't accuse you of moving the goalposts. But the issue is not whether either Danny or Sabretooth are more formidable than what they were portrayed in their first fight. The issue is the notion that you can dismiss that first fight as basically never happening because "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

I still think it's borderline trolling to hold the fight against Creed. Something can have minor value, and still not be worth using overall. Danny is more skilled than Sabes. In this sense, the showing has "value" for depicting this fact. But, we see that in plenty of other showings. We don't lose anything from throwing this encounter out, and the rest of the fight can't adequately account for their current forms.

It's perfectly fine to disagree, but I wasn't being inconsistent there. It's canon, but I just don't see a worthwhile use of this showing in any honest discussion about a fight between them.

It is canon and it definitely happened.

Nobody is going full "I don't like it, it didn't happen", as ODG loves to repeat over 9000 times in every CBvF thread.

But was that incarnation of Creed even half as formidable as the one from 1987?

Well... no.

Having his powerset fully established and getting a few upgrades in later years matters in this discussion --- just as Danny growing more powerful (Book of Iron Fist and so on) matters as well.

And ffs, it's not their only fight.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
One showing. Outlier for that era, as you know it.

Or perhaps you can think of any other showings from that time matching that performance? Creed sneaking up on Rogue and beating the crap out of her happened in 1987, fyi.

You should also keep in mind Ms Marvel #24 didn't actually get published... the final product got released in 1992 as "Marvel Super-Heroes".

You suggest that it is more logical to act like Sabretooth's first fight shouldn't matter. We should also ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s where his character is elaborated/defined and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed.

But none of that should matter, because Wolverithmetics, yo...

Originally posted by StyleTime
I didn't move the goalposts though.

I still think it's borderline trolling to hold the fight against Creed. Something can have minor value, and still not be worth using overall. Danny is more skilled than Sabes. In this sense, the showing has "value" for depicting this fact. But, we see that in plenty of other showings. We don't lose anything from throwing this encounter out, and the rest of the fight can't adequately account for their current forms.