Should Marijuana Be Legalized?

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, this is my understanding at least (just to clarify, the only part of the mind I could legitimatly be said to have any expertise in would be the visual cortex and the system that brings information from the retina through either the LGN or the optic tactum, so nothing related to addiction, at all).

It is not that pot can't be as addictive as heroin, or that it wont produce worse withdrawl effects, just more that the severity of these things for a pot user will be more likely defined by social context (some things as simple as: can i find something else to do with the time i used to spend doing drugs) rather than the chemical properties of the drug itself.

That being said, all addiction is mediated by social context, so like I said before, I'm not as big a fan as the distinction between "types" of addiction as you are, but in terms of the question you are asking, we agree.

As I understand it, it is considered to have withdrawals if the person experiences physical symptoms due to immediate discontinuation. Shaky hands, feeling ill, etc. These are symptoms experienced by heavy-chronic users.

Mental, yes. There's a strong "mental" dependency on MJ for many chronic users.

Whether or not it is addictive is certainly not debatable. Millions of people chronically use it, so it is definitely addictive. The degree of addiction is different for each person, as well. Some people can smoke loads in 2 weeks, and stop the next day, without batting an eye. Others can smoke it once and want to smoke it the rest of their life.

Originally posted by dadudemon
As I understand it, it is considered to have withdrawals if the person experiences physical symptoms due to immediate discontinuation. Shaky hands, feeling ill, etc. These are symptoms experienced by heavy-chronic users.

Mental, yes. There's a strong "mental" dependency on MJ for many chronic users.

Whether or not it is addictive is certainly not debatable. Millions of people chronically use it, so it is definitely addictive. The degree of addiction is different for each person, as well. Some people can smoke loads in 2 weeks, and stop the next day, without batting an eye. Others can smoke it once and want to smoke it the rest of their life.

Many people chronically shop, and play Xbox.

What then? Are there chemicals in Prada's Autumn/Winter collection that we don't know about?

-AC

Originally posted by dadudemon
As I understand it, it is considered to have withdrawals if the person experiences physical symptoms due to immediate discontinuation. Shaky hands, feeling ill, etc. These are symptoms experienced by heavy-chronic users.

The only real lit ive seen on this was comparing the subjective feelings of being agitated by ending use of cigs vs pot.

People were told to, at random times determined by the experimenters, report their levels of agitation. People who stopped smoking pot felt much more agitated than those who stopped smoking cigs.

Potentially thousands of reasons, but the whole thing is, those thousands of reasons are ALL part of addiction. For cigs, the social plays a huge role, but it is not the only part, for pot, it almost is. Ive seen very little to suggest "addiction" from pot outside of relevant social context.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mental, yes. There's a strong "mental" dependency on MJ for many chronic users.

maybe social, habitual, or contextual are better terms than mental here...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Whether or not it is addictive is certainly not debatable. Millions of people chronically use it, so it is definitely addictive. The degree of addiction is different for each person, as well. Some people can smoke loads in 2 weeks, and stop the next day, without batting an eye. Others can smoke it once and want to smoke it the rest of their life.

that is, theoretically, the same for any substance.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Many people chronically shop, and play Xbox.

What then? Are there chemicals in Prada's Autumn/Winter collection that we don't know about?

-AC

In both cases, addiction can play a roll, as well. 😬

tanning addiciton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning_addiction

Originally posted by dadudemon
In both cases, addiction can play a roll, as well. 😬

MENTAL addiction is what it is. The mental tendancy to rely or depend on something of your own accord. Prada and Gears of War are not secreting chemicals.

People lose jobs and relationships due to World of Warcraft. Nobody can say that is not an addiction, but it's not an addiction in the sense that yor body needs what you want. YOU just want it.

People get addicted to medicines that aren't even real, placebos. Not because there's anything in them, but because they mentally want it. if they didn't have it, their body wouldn't be worse off.

-AC

Originally posted by inimalist
The only real lit ive seen on this was comparing the subjective feelings of being agitated by ending use of cigs vs pot.

People were told to, at random times determined by the experimenters, report their levels of agitation. People who stopped smoking pot felt much more agitated than those who stopped smoking cigs.

Potentially thousands of reasons, but the whole thing is, those thousands of reasons are ALL part of addiction. For cigs, the social plays a huge role, but it is not the only part, for pot, it almost is. Ive seen very little to suggest "addiction" from pot outside of relevant social context.

Some get the shakes, some feel ill, some get agitated, some get X sub n+1. There's many physical "withdrawal" symptoms for people who are heavy users.

Originally posted by inimalist
maybe social, habitual, or contextual are better terms than mental here...

I have a hard time defining it any more broadly than "it's in the brain and how that brain processes information."

Originally posted by inimalist
that is, theoretically, the same for any substance.

Did I just institute the slippery slope towards calling water an addictive chemical? hmm

So, where, in your mind, do we draw the line between a psychoactive drug and things that we need to simply survive?

I could be missing your point, completely, here, so correct me if I've gone off the deep-end.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
but it's not an addiction in the sense that yor body needs what you want. YOU just want it.

here is where I think you and I disagree

your body still needs something chemical in a "mental" addiction, and the substance (pot, gears of war, prada) gives that chemical. Not directly, but there is still a physical source for the addiction in "mental" addictions...

maybe it still is just a language thing

Originally posted by inimalist
here is where I think you and I disagree

your body still needs something chemical in a "mental" addiction, and the substance (pot, gears of war, prada) gives that chemical. Not directly, but there is still a physical source for the addiction in "mental" addictions...

maybe it still is just a language thing

I use "Mental" in the sense that it comes from you, not a substance or item. It's your dependency on it, without the thing creating a dependence. Whereas heroin creates a dependence.

So maybe it is language, haha.

-AC

Originally posted by dadudemon
Some get the shakes, some feel ill, some get agitated, some get X sub n+1. There's many physical "withdrawal" symptoms for people who are heavy users.

yes, very true. All I was trying to show was the limited info on pot withdrawl.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have a hard time defining it any more broadly than "it's in the brain and how that brain processes information."

well, yes, but that is literally true of anything you have ever experienced in the universe. Saying that addition originates in the brain is really tautological. Basically, all you are saying is you don't think addiction is magic or supernatural

Originally posted by dadudemon
Did I just institute the slippery slope towards calling water an addictive chemical? hmm

So, where, in your mind, do we draw the line between a psychoactive drug and things that we need to simply survive?

I could be missing your point, completely, here, so correct me if I've gone off the deep-end.

that is an interesting, but unrelated question

food addiction is entirely possible. I don't think water produces a dopamanergic response, but if you ritualized its taking, then sure, you absolutly could.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
MENTAL addiction is what it is. The mental tendancy to rely or depend on something of your own accord. Prada and Gears of War are not secreting chemicals.

I'm glad you brought that up. Now we are full circle.

Originally posted by dadudemon
you can become addicted to the idea/reward of the high, similar to being addicted to being in love. It's a neurochemical addiction, related to dopamine.

In fact, we can, scientifically, say that some people are addicated to marajuana.

Edit - Effin' inimalist beat me to he punch. 😠

Originally posted by dadudemon
People lose jobs and relationships due to World of Warcraft. Nobody can say that is not an addiction, but it's not an addiction in the sense that yor body needs what you want. YOU just want it.

People get addicted to medicines that aren't even real, placebos. Not because there's anything in them, but because they mentally want it. if they didn't have it, their body wouldn't be worse off.

-AC

Well, this is where you and I disagree, then. We will probably continue to disagree, so there's no point in trying to debate it further. There are specific chemicals the "feed the addiction" that come internally. There's a nice cascade of chemicals, actually, from adrenaline (when beign a chronic shopper), dopamine, bla bla bla.

That's not it, though.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I use "Mental" in the sense that it comes from you, not a substance or item. It's your dependency on it, without the thing creating a dependence. Whereas heroin creates a dependence.

So maybe it is language, haha.

-AC

probably, let me just try this:

Heroin is addictive because the chemical itself is used in our reward system, or coke is addictive because it modifies the release of the specific chemical that is used in our reward system.

pot is addictive because its effects also, though indirectly, activate the reward system. Because of this, social context is so important, as it can mediate how receptive our brain is to this reward.

I'd still say pot is the cause...

now excuse me... me and a girl named mary, with green eyes and some of the nicest red hair you have ever seen, have a date.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I use "Mental" in the sense that it comes from you, not a substance or item. It's your dependency on it, without the thing creating a dependence. Whereas heroin creates a dependence.

So maybe it is language, haha.

-AC

Oh, okay. On that, then I would agree. That IS a language problem. I agree with you, almost completely, now that you've phrased it that way. However, I'm not entirely sure it's completely "self." There are nice drug effects going on when you take a drag. There is quite a measurable difference on the person's state after the drug. There are physiological, chemcial in origin, changes, as well. On that, I have to fall back on what inimalist was trying to tell me earlier: I don't believe we have much, in terms of research, on the more addictive properties of MJ...as far as treatment, withdrawals, withdrawal explanations, etc.

My point is: heroin will cause the same effects in anybody, with maybe minor difference.

If pot was addictive in the same sense, it would be felt across the board. Everyone who's a regular smoker feels the kick for nicotine. Not everyone who smokes pot thinks: "I need a joint.".

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm glad you brought that up. Now we are full circle.

Edit - Effin' inimalist beat me to he punch. 😠

Well, this is where you and I disagree, then. We will probably continue to disagree, so there's no point in trying to debate it further. There are specific chemicals the "feed the addiction" that come internally. There's a nice cascade of chemicals, actually, from adrenaline (when beign a chronic shopper), dopamine, bla bla bla.

That's not it, though.

That's not full circle, that's me saying what I originally said, and you disagreed with.

EDIT: There, you see.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
My point is: heroin will cause the same effects in anybody, with maybe minor difference.

If pot was addictive in the same sense, it would be felt across the board. Everyone who's a regular smoker feels the kick for nicotine. Not everyone who smokes pot thinks: "I need a joint.".

That's not full circle, that's me saying what I originally said, and you disagreed with.

EDIT: There, you see.

-AC

It was full circle because it brought me back to my original point about it still being a chemical addiction.

But, the point is moot, actually, because you and I agree on the absurdity of it's "illegality." The reasoning is scientifically preposterous.

What would society honestly gain from it being made legal?

Originally posted by §P0oONY
What would society honestly gain from it being made legal?

A good, herbal smell emanating around every household.

Better, safer marijuana, more effective treatment for problems arising from the use of it, decreased bureaucratic work, increased tax income.

Not to forget that there's just no reason to have it illegal, and like I said, that's the way you have to decide why something should be illegal, not the other way around.

Originally posted by §P0oONY
What would society honestly gain from it being made legal?

1. A tax source.

2. The elimination of many criminal aspects from it being illegal (it's going to be grown, harvested, processed, distrubted, and smoked, no matter what. If it's illegal, it brings a darke criminal element to it. It shouldn't.).

3. Relief off of our crminal justice system for things that actually matter.

4. Less money spent on incarceration and legal costs. Bla bla bla.

5. Cheap relief and or use of a drug that has multiple uses.

6. To spite the tobacco industry (reason #1, imo), conservatards (reason #2, IMO), and the idiots that don't know why it's stupid for it to be illegal.

7. Grant the people more personal freedoms and choices about governing their own bodies, rather than having an oppressive, wasteful, "nanny state."

What are your reasons for keeping it illegal?

Originally posted by Moscow
A good, herbal smell emanating around every household.

Well, heh heh...some of it smells down right nasty. In fact, most of it smells nasty.

Also, a lot of the marijuana apparently comes from countries you'd probably not want to support in that way.