Luke CAN'T be that strong of a jedi

Originally posted by mossman
[B]Some people think Luke was very well trained and very powerful at the time of ROTJ, but I totally disagree.

What do you mean by power?
What is true "power"?
I think you are missing the whole point of the saga here.
"Wars not make one great"

I could honestly give a shit whether EU says Luke is the strongest ever.

I agree.

The movies clearly paint him out to be a farm boy with little or no real Jedi skills.

Well, if by "the movies" you mean half of ANH, then I might entertain
your unique standpoint.

I mean the kid had to actually throw the rock to close the gate on that monster.

LOL

Any other half way decent 10 year old Padawan would simply have used the force to toss the rock at the control panel. But not douchebag Luke. He had to pick it up, aim, and throw it and hope like hell he hit it.

He's a far more human hero, that is his power.

He's a tool, and Vader could have sliced and diced him in roughly 3 seconds if he wanted to.

I take it you've never watched ROTJ any futher than the Rancor bit then - I recommend you do...
🙄 [/B]

Never mind what you think 'true' power is; this question is about how powerful a Jedi he is. And the answer is- he's not a very good at all, because his training is only just done at the end of ROTJ.

In terms of potency, Luke can't actually do anything at all over than convince his father to kill the Emperor.

'Wars make not one great' is simply Yoda being glib. Yoda's ability in war is sitll demonstration of his power- he's just saying that isn't the underlying reason, and for all its 'not greatness', war destroyed the Jedi and gave the Sith power.

Indeed, the whole point is that Luke achieves despite his lack of power. But only in that his purpose is to open the doors for someone else to act.

Other than that he is whiny, impulsive and not that bright.

buut he hs somthing that obi-wan saw perhars it was his father

Agreed, ush

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Never mind what you think 'true' power is; this question is about how powerful a Jedi he is. And the answer is- he's not a very good at all, because his training is only just done at the end of ROTJ.

Well if you put it like that - He beats is old man, the chosen one, into submission.
He is a powerful Jedi.
That is why Palpatine has his eye on him in the first place.

Even if you specify that the question asks how "powerful a Jedi" he is, I think my comment stands - you still must establish what critera you use to decide what constitutes a "powerful Jedi".

If you think being a powerful Jedi is just about owning people, then fair enough.
Luke's record is lost one, won one, and match abandoned.
There are better and worse records in the SW canon.
If you think it is just about saber skills, then, yeah - Lucas has explained how all we see in the OT is old cripples and semi-trained boys fighting.
But I don't believe for a minute that you all think that there is nothing more to being a powerful Jedi than deadliness and efficiency with a saber.

Ultimately, Luke is also everything the Jedi of the PT should have been.
He is the first and only Jedi to be trained by a Yoda who finally had it sussed, thanks to Qui-Gon Jinn.

I'm not saying Luke was the "most powerful" Jedi - that league table is irrelavent and doesn't exist.
But who from the PT could have achieved what Skywalker acheived?
Which other Jedi would have thrown down the sword?
It was not luck - it was what he had learned form Obi and Yoda.

him beating the chosen one means absolutely nothing, moss! Being the chosen one doesn't mean he is invunerable, will never die etc. he is good yes, lots of potential but he isn't god, he's just another human

He's the chosen one, yes, but the force works in mysterious ways.

Originally posted by mossman
Well if you put it like that - He beats is old man, the chosen one, into submission.
He is a powerful Jedi.
That is why Palpatine has his eye on him in the first place.

Even if you specify that the question asks how "powerful a Jedi" he is, I think my comment stands - you still must establish what critera you use to decide what constitutes a "powerful Jedi".

If you think being a powerful Jedi is just about owning people, then fair enough.
Luke's record is lost one, won one, and match abandoned.
There are better and worse records in the SW canon.
If you think it is just about saber skills, then, yeah - Lucas has explained how all we see in the OT is old cripples and semi-trained boys fighting.
But I don't believe for a minute that you all think that there is nothing more to being a powerful Jedi than deadliness and efficiency with a saber.

Ultimately, Luke is also everything the Jedi of the PT should have been.
He is the first and only Jedi to be trained by a Yoda who finally had it sussed, thanks to Qui-Gon Jinn.

I'm not saying Luke was the "most powerful" Jedi - that league table is irrelavent and doesn't exist.
But who from the PT could have achieved what Skywalker acheived?
Which other Jedi would have thrown down the sword?
It was not luck - it was what he had learned form Obi and Yoda.

Everything the PT Jedi should have been? Are you joking? He is whiny, impatient, and comes close to falling to the Dark Side. He is a troubled and inefficient Jedi, and there is nothing wrong with the PT equivalents! The only Jedi he is better than in that sense is Anakin, which is not saying much!

He has a lot of potential but is only a half-trained boy who ultimate achives one thing in not going quite as bad as his father did. That is not displaying much outright power or, really, THAT much inner strength or wisdom- because he lacks in those.

Such hero worship for Luke is odd. He's a flawed hero who just manages to not turn bad, not a paragon of virtue. Like I say, the dramatic point is that he succeeds despite his failings, unlike Anakin who was consumed by them.

Just about every single Jedi from the PT could have done the same- they didn't have the failings to begin with. Much more boring dramatically, but it is still so.

And as said- beating the Chosen One means nothing in that sense.

btw, mossman, you'll have to watch the EpI DVD again, I think it's in one of those 20 little docs where GL says (or something like that):

"This is the hayday, the golden age of the jedi..."
and (and this is not literally, just what he was getting at):
"We've seen crippled men and old machines (yes, in plural for some reason) fight and young boys that learn from these men but we have never seen a full jedi knight in his golden age fight."

so it's clear that when it comes to fighting Luke is rather poor in it

Only in rotj he is weak but many years after he is powerful and wise

Yes infact if Luke was a pre-war jedi he would have been on the council,hes more powerful the Kit Fisto and Ki Adi Mundi

Originally posted by yodafan
BUT there is one thing, if Sidius is so powerful why didn't he turn on his lightsaber in ROTJ and slice luke into little pieces. He should have sensed that Vader would turn on him, after all even Luke was able to see the future in TESB.

"Your overconfidence is your weakness," said Luke to the Emperor before the fight began on the new Death Star and Yoda says in ESB, "Always in motion is future."

true the emperor was ove confident and did not expect to be killed that was one of his downfalls.

his shatterpoint was his trust in vader as said by Mace Windu in the EpIII novel

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
Yes infact if Luke was a pre-war jedi he would have been on the council,hes more powerful the Kit Fisto and Ki Adi Mundi

that statement can only be true if he has enough potential and got trained by decent masters (and not cripled ones)... though I have yet to see anything in the movies to convince me he's a strong jedi 😖

Originally posted by yerssot
wow, the council is lousy then

that statement can only be true if he has enough potential and got trained by decent masters (and not cripled ones)... though I have yet to see anything in the movies to convince me he's a strong jedi 😖

you wont in the movies but you will in the EU

when luke was born he was given the gift of strenght by the sith lord ruth who was pleased with lukes father for turning to the dark side ,so he gave his son the gift of strenght ,as a thank you

oviously if you were a true fan of star wars u would realise that beeing the one who is ment to bring balance to the force, the force is already very strong in luke. that is why he learns the ways of the force so quickly. by posting a thread like this you are only showing your own ignorence.

errr... hold the ignorence. Luke isn't the one that brings balance to the force, anakin does it. Luke is just the catalyst to do it.

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
you wont in the movies but you will in the EU

Originally posted by Vanquish
I don't know what it is about people misquoting me all the time. For those who can't read very well, this isn't a discussion about whether Luke becomes powerful in NJO or anything like that when he is older. I clearly said:

Some people think Luke was very well trained and very powerful at the time of ROTJ, but I totally disagree. That is what the thread was meant to discuss.

I could honestly give a shit whether EU says Luke is the strongest ever. The movies clearly paint him out to be a farm boy with little or no real Jedi skills. I mean the kid had to actually throw the rock to close the gate on that monster. Any other half way decent 10 year old Padawan would simply have used the force to toss the rock at the control panel. But not douchebag Luke. He had to pick it up, aim, and throw it and hope like hell he hit it.

He's a tool, and Vader could have sliced and diced him in roughly 3 seconds if he wanted to.

Sorry... It's when Vader says he'll turn his sister to the dark side that sets Luke off. Lol.

Originally posted by Kpag3030
I think a major point is getting missed in this thread... I'll give you that his combat training is quite possibly lacking, but in the final Vader fight, Luke doesn't want to hurt his father, and Vader is conflicted over his kid. Each wants to turn the other over to their side. In my opinion, having seen the movie 100 times, both were holding back in that fight. Luke tries to not fight multiple times and is extremely confident the whole time. It isn't until the Emperor provokes Luke that he finally lashes out and takes Vader down. Vader didn't seem to have an answer for this. I'd say, his training was adequate, and the training he did on his own, along with his meditations prepared him for that final battle. Excellent force instincts and a balanced mind... And holds a balance of light and dark within himself. Could he Stand up to Jedi in their prime from the clone wars era? Who knows. He's not as polished, but he is effective.