Official Doctor Who Thread

Originally posted by -K-M-
So what did people think of the episode. We still really don't know the doctors personality yet will take a few episodes. Have seen a lot of negative comments mostly from young girls wanting a younger doctor (shocking)

Which is hilarious, given that the episode itself dwells on this very fact. Like the opening of season 3 of Sherlock, Moffat seems prescient when it comes to anticipating fan gripes.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The episode was a bit all over the place, ups and downs, so not a flying start- but Peter was very good and I'm looking forward to see where it goes.

Agreed for the most part. Both Tennant and Smith got such excellent first episodes that this one felt like a letdown in comparison. No complaints about Capaldi, though.

I'm surprised they're doing Daleks next (again). How many times can they go to that well before it dries up?

It's such a weird thing with Daleks. They've not been this vital ratings-puller since the 70s. It's the first thing that comes to people's mind with Doctor Who, but Dalek stories ever since the revival have hardly been any sort of magic bullet that holds the show together. Dalek itself was good- fair enough. Parting of the Ways was really just the all-action build on that and is more well known for Bad Wolf and Eccleston's departure, and likewise Doomsday and Journey's End hit home with the emotional lurch with the Doctor and companions, quintuply so for Rose in Doomsday- Daleks were in no way the heart of those stories. Heck, if I mention Doomsday to a lot of people, they'll talk about Tennant and Rose on the beach but they struggle to remember Daleks were even in it.

Every other Dalek story has been total rubbish (Daleks in Manhattan) or varying degrees of disappointing (Victory and Asylum)- and nor have they been any sort of ratings success, so they don't particularly please the fans and they don't particularly please the public either, so I am not sure why people keep taking shots at it. Moffat even straight said that he won't write Dalek stories unless he has a good idea for them, but they keep on showing up (and to be fair. Asylum was a different take on things and this one tonight sounds different as well). The re-make attempt in Victory died on its bottom in seconds.

Honestly, we can go a few years without Daleks. Heck, when the series went a while without them in the 70s, their comeback was Genesis which is a classic whose impact is still felt in the show today. Save up the big foes, don't waste them.

(We can forgive Day of the Doctor of course as Moffat was kinda forced to use Daleks there and they really only formed the background. Mind you, they again fell victim to the 'button of doom' curse. The Great Time War ended when the Daleks all shot each other by mistake eh? Rather like their fleet-destroying button in Journey's End- iot makes them look a bit shit...)

Paradoxically, I don't mind them keeping on trying with cybermen, because I loved them in the original and they can't get them right in the new show, with not even one good story. Someone HAS to get them right eventually.

Originally posted by Digi
Both Tennant and Smith got such excellent first episodes that this one felt like a letdown in comparison.?

Just on this point- I don't know if The Christmas Invasion was accidentally or deliberately brilliant- I was bored senseless for the first 3/4s of that story, and then Tennant finally woke up, and he hit that story like a nuclear bomb of awesomness. So as stories go, in isolation, it wasn't much, but as a vehicle for introducing Tennant, it was perfect.

I do wonder if RTD did do these things on purpose. Utopia is another one- pretty boring story for the most part, then super amazing Master reveal which is my favourite moment of the entire new series and maybe from Who ever (and I'd even been spoiled about it). It didn't seem like coincidence- the episode even has a plotline which is more or less completely aborted when the Master shows up. That's not by chance or error- it was a rug pull. It's like RTD was happy to sacrifice a story to make a moment work, and I respect that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's such a weird thing with Daleks. They've not been this vital ratings-puller since the 70s. It's the first thing that comes to people's mind with Doctor Who, but Dalek stories ever since the revival have hardly been any sort of magic bullet that holds the show together. Dalek itself was good- fair enough. Parting of the Ways was really just the all-action build on that and is more well known for Bad Wolf and Eccleston's departure, and likewise Doomsday and Journey's End hit home with the emotional lurch with the Doctor and companions, quintuply so for Rose in Doomsday- Daleks were in no way the heart of those stories. Heck, if I mention Doomsday to a lot of people, they'll talk about Tennant and Rose on the beach but they struggle to remember Daleks were even in it.

Every other Dalek story has been total rubbish (Daleks in Manhattan) or varying degrees of disappointing (Victory and Asylum)- and nor have they been any sort of ratings success, so they don't particularly please the fans and they don't particularly please the public either, so I am not sure why people keep taking shots at it. Moffat even straight said that he won't write Dalek stories unless he has a good idea for them, but they keep on showing up (and to be fair. Asylum was a different take on things and this one tonight sounds different as well). The re-make attempt in Victory died on its bottom in seconds.

Honestly, we can go a few years without Daleks. Heck, when the series went a while without them in the 70s, their comeback was Genesis which is a classic whose impact is still felt in the show today. Save up the big foes, don't waste them.

(We can forgive Day of the Doctor of course as Moffat was kinda forced to use Daleks there and they really only formed the background. Mind you, they again fell victim to the 'button of doom' curse. The Great Time War ended when the Daleks all shot each other by mistake eh? Rather like their fleet-destroying button in Journey's End- iot makes them look a bit shit...)

Paradoxically, I don't mind them keeping on trying with cybermen, because I loved them in the original and they [b]can't get them right in the new show, with not even one good story. Someone HAS to get them right eventually. [/B]

On the flip side, they're slow-playing the return of the Master, which is excellent. But yeah, Daleks have slowly been wasted in the new series. As you say, the best episodes with them received acclaim for other reasons, though I did enjoy the melodramatic splendor of Season 4's finale. No other villain could have provided the correct backdrop.

Gaiman gave it the best shot yet to make the Cybermen seem like a decent villain again. I didn't mind that episode so much, because they were actually a menace that seemed like a threat to the Doctor.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just on this point- I don't know if The Christmas Invasion was accidentally or deliberately brilliant- I was bored senseless for the first 3/4s of that story, and then Tennant finally woke up, and he hit that story like a nuclear bomb of awesomness. So as stories go, in isolation, it wasn't much, but as a vehicle for introducing Tennant, it was perfect.

I do wonder if RTD did do these things on purpose. Utopia is another one- pretty boring story for the most part, then [b]super amazing Master reveal which is my favourite moment of the entire new series and maybe from Who ever (and I'd even been spoiled about it). It didn't seem like coincidence- the episode even has a plotline which is more or less completely aborted when the Master shows up. That's not by chance or error- it was a rug pull. It's like RTD was happy to sacrifice a story to make a moment work, and I respect that. [/B]

Oh, agreed entirely. Though excellent all-around, I'd happily sacrifice the quality of Smith's opening episode for that spectacular introduction in front of the Atraxi.

Nightmare in Silver is the best of the bunch we have, but I don't think they've really managed to grab the idea of what cybermen are meant to represent (which, to be fair on their Dalek coverage, they have got right there in their exploration of that whole racial hatred thing). It could have been a different villain in NiS and it wouldn't have made a difference.

They came closest to that back in Rise of the Cybermen, but they just made the cybermen there very dull.

Ok, so, fair's fair, that was a good episode- and Peter himself is brilliant. That slightly callous personality they've given him is perfect.

Though in the context of the broader discussion here- whilst Daleks were necessary for this story, it was actually about The Doctor, which is great but it means I'm not changing my mind on using Daleks- we don't need a bunch more Dalek stories in the near future.

The gf and I are waiting to watch the entirety of the season together once it ends (with the exception of the first episode, which we've seen). So I won't get to join in the discussion for a while.

Ohhhhh ok.

I liked the episode, your seeing more of the doctor's new personality...and I like it

No one is talking about this season at all?

I'm waiting on Digi, really.

Oh....I see how it is 🙁

😂

I'm getting antsy with a bunch of episodes to watch. I'll probably break the seasons into halves and catch up on the first half soon, if we can find the time for it (our weekends are packed in October). Worst case scenario, I AM going to catch up as it hits the last 3 episodes or so. I need to be able to see the season finale as it drops, not weeks later. But I'm in the dog house if I watch without the gf, so it may be tricky.

Until then, someone give Mungi an umbrella. He'll catch a cold waiting for someone to come play with him. 😛

*throws bone to Ush*

I watched Ep. 2. I'm still having trouble understanding everything Capaldi says. Maybe it's the accent, but when he goes into the classic "Doctor says clever stuff in a friggin hurry" it usually just sounds like gibberish to me. It's holding me back from truly embracing him.

I think someone said earlier that they needed it to be Daleks for the premise to work, and that's true. It worked to progress what I can only assume is Moffat's agenda for this Doctor...to blur the line between his rage and his goodness.

I got an odd thrill watching the opening sequence with him and the space girl in the TARDIS, with the coffee in the cup holders. Lovely interaction; high point of the episode.

Yeah I said it needed Daleks to work, but it wasn't actually a Dalek story per se- it was really about the Doctor (and so Daleks were necessary only in as much as they are an important factor in his psyche).

I'm sure you'll get used to Capaldi!

I just found episode 7 pretty painful to watch, even though the basic premise and style should have hooked me. I'll be interested to see what you make of that one when you get there.

Looking forward to an episode without Clara. I liked her with Matt Smith, she balanced his awkwardness/goofiness out, but I don't think she works so well with Peter Capaldi. It just doesn't seem that he needs her, and in fact, at times it's like she's holding him back. With Peter, I was hoping to find a bit more of the Doctor's alieness and ruthlessness emphasised. This weekend will be the first episode without Clara, and frankly, I can't wait.

So ok, we're starting to catch up. We just watched through S08E06 (The Caretaker).

First off, "Listen" was the best episode in a while, by a lot. Just truly great. The twist in the barn was genuinely surprising and heart-wrenching, even if Moffat's writing (or re-writing) the Doctor's history through Clara in ways that might irk some fans. Beyond that, it was suspenseful and had a really interesting premise from the opening scene onward. Most everything else has been good-not-great, but that episode is the clear outlier so far, imo.

I continue to like Capaldi but not love him. Maybe it's the writing; the comedy seems a bit more forced. I get that he's a bit more grumpy, but I don't think I've had a memorable laugh-out-loud moment in S8. The overarching "Heaven" conceit also has yet to interest me. Even if the payoff was lackluster in some past seasons, the overarching gimmicks - Bad Wolf, the Silence, the Impossible Girl, etc. - had me interested in the earlier episodes. This Heaven thing, not as much. The hope is that the lackluster buildup makes it easier to overperform at the finale. Sometimes the amazing introductions of ideas (the Impossible Astronaut two-parter, for the best example), set the bar so high that the payoff HAS to be a letdown.

Mark Gatiss is still batting 0 for whatever on his episodes. There were some really clever lines in the Robin Hood thing; but for a mythos that I adore, I would have thought I'd enjoy the episode a lot more. As it is, it blends into the rest of the good-not-great episodes, leaving me feeling like he just hasn't quite figured it out yet. He's so good on Sherlock though that I don't mind.

Yeah Gatiss just can't seem to nail Who! He'll keep trying. For some reason he thinks Errol Flynn Robin Hood is true Robin Hood and other less colourful representations miss the point. He is wrong. Besides, the 1980's ITV Robin Hood is the best by miles (you should watch that, Digi, if you don't mind 80's style- it was ITV's competitor to Doctor Who for a while).

Interested to see what you make of Kill the Moon, which in mood and style should have been right up my alley but that in fact I really disliked. In comparison, the clearly more light-hearted The Caretaker was great (and SO much better than The Lodger) and similarly the adventure-movie style Mummy on the Orient Express- whose title did not endear me- was very good as well. In fact I think it's probably the best of the series so far; this outs it in awkward competition with Listen. I think Digi will prefer Listen- I liked Listen but for some reason it didn't quite scale the super-heights for me. It wasn't the idea, which was good; I just feel some of the moment-by-moment stuff wasn't absolutely 100%. Anyway, certainly Mummy, Listen, Caretaker and Into the Dalek so far have been good; Robots is the most forgettable but Kill the Moon the most annoying (most irritating of all, it actually moves the plot forward as well, so it's an important episode. If only it had been a bit more grounded- it was just too wacky for me).

Sorry you were disappointed, Dreampanther! Mind you, one nice touch about Mummy is that for the first time on a while the Doctor unambiguously solved everything, and via his brains.

I do like the Errol Flynn Robin Hood, actually. This guy was a caricature of Flynn, though, with half the charisma.

But yeah, at some point I'll look into the 80s series you mentioned. Sounds interesting.

Everything's been fine - there hasn't been an episode I've disliked - but the writing in general seems stunted. Maybe they haven't figured out how to mine true humor out of Capaldi yet. Listen is the exception, of course. But I shouldn't be far behind you at this point. We're going to watch the next few episodes either this upcoming weekend or the one after.

I'm continuing to catch up, though the pace at which my gf falls asleep anytime we watch anything limits the number of episodes I can watch in a single sitting.

Kill the Moon was fine. Not sure what your issue is with it, Ush. It was pretty clear they were pushing toward a breaking point, and it's nice to see an actual narrative push as a result of Capaldi's grumpiness.

Mummy was excellent. Just wonderful. The twist was great, and the solution was epic. It reminded me of Matt Smith walking into the Silence lair with a 1950's TV and wrecking shop with a 1-2 minute monologue. Just the way the plot fit together with the resolution, and how seamless it all seemed, was cool. It's in the episode pantheon for me now, along with "Listen" from this season.