God vs. Science: The Inclusion of Creationism in School Textbooks?

Started by Lana37 pages

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Not necessarily. The Church and many bibles say that the "Seven days" of Genesis fame has a high possibility of simply being part of oral tradition, built up over the hundreds of years before anything was written down.

I personally don't believe the seven days to be literal, but I don't see how evolution can stand scientific scrutiny.

Evolution HAS been standing scientific scrutiny since the idea was first formulated, why do you think that there's so much evidence supporting it? Like I said, a hypothesis does NOT become a theory unless there is substantial evidence to support it.

I must ask -- do you have any knowledge of the scientific method?

I believe several people have said that evolution "is the most logical theory we currently have." Somewhere before page four.

Yet I don't see logic in it. And again, why the double standard? If one can believe evolution even if it "doesn't make sense right away" why is that same way of thinking not applied to creationism?

Originally posted by General Kaliero
I believe several people have said that evolution "is the most logical theory we currently have." Somewhere before page four.

Yet I don't see logic in it. And again, why the double standard? If one can believe evolution even if it "doesn't make sense right away" why is that same way of thinking not applied to creationism?

Because of the amount of evidence there is for it, it IS the most logical theory. If it doesn't make sense, then read up on it some more. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by Lana
Evolution HAS been standing scientific scrutiny since the idea was first formulated, why do you think that there's so much evidence supporting it? Like I said, a hypothesis does NOT become a theory unless there is substantial evidence to support it.

I must ask -- do you have any knowledge of the scientific method?

Yes, actually, I do. Someone (Darwin) comes up with a hypothesis (evolution) and tests it to see if it is plausible (a step not particularly reliable, depending on the scientist). Then, if it stands his tests, he turns the hypothesis over to other scientists, who test it for themselves to see if it is plausible (a step I've heard a lot about, but not seen any references that support it). If the hypothesis stands their tests as well, and enough people agree that it's plausible, it becomes a theory.

However, I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary. Such as the fact that evolution often seems to contradict itself. It also seems to contradict the second law of thermodynamics.

And unknown to many evolutionists, a momentous if not historic conference, consisting of one hundred and sixty of the world's most distinguished evolutionists, took place in Chicago during October, 1980. At that meeting a unanimous admission was made to the fact that the previous 120 years of fossil recovery had failed to provide one irrefutable case of an intermediate fossil. In other words, it was conceded that the long held Darwinian belief that evolution had occurred through infinitesimal small changes over immense periods of time was unlikely - to say the least!

And that was reported in Newsweek on the third of November of that same year.

Hey Lana..


Where's the missing link in the "non-linear" line that shows a distinct transition between "APE" and "Man?

Hey Whobdamandog,

Where's this evidence that shows creationism as a credible and provable believe?

-AC

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Hey Lana..

[b]
Where's the missing link in the "non-linear" line that shows a distinct transition between "APE" and "Man?
[/B]

Originally posted by yerssot
which part of "missing" forms a difficulty to understand?

furthermore, they can backtrace the human origin back to almost 7 million years ago... creationism can't even go back 4000 years in time

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hey Whobdamandog,

Where's this evidence that shows creationism as a credible and provable believe?

-AC

evidence: Evolution has no evidence 😛 😂

Oh and I suppose, to them, God creating everyone and everything in a week is barricaded with evidence then?

Dinosaur fossils. Anyone? Creationists only. Type with your thumbs, or lack thereof, if you wish.

-AC

I think we're drifting away from topic by hammering each other with "prove me this or prove me that". Let's shift back at the question at hand. The Inclusion of Creationism in School Textbooks? To that I answer....yes! Just for academic purposes. Should it be mandatory for schools to do it? No, it should be optional.

Originally posted by WindDancer
I think we're drifting away from topic by hammering each other with "prove me this or prove me that". Let's shift back at the question at hand. The Inclusion of Creationism in School Textbooks? To that I answer....yes! Just for academic purposes. Should it be mandatory for schools to do it? No, it should be optional.

On the topic? So long as it's not in a science textbook. Because it most certainly does NOT belong there.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hey Whobdamandog,

Where's this evidence that shows creationism as a credible and provable believe?

-AC

That's an oxymoronic question..Both have "credible" evidence supporting them...and neither theory has been proven as of yet. Anyway I've given just as much evidence as Lana has supporting "Creationism"..scan back through the previous pages if you want to find it...

Here we go. Everything I could find on that 1980 Evolutionists meeting, and all cited, as well.

For decades, men had to silently accept evolutionary theory in order to graduate with a doctorate and enter a field of science. Everywhere they turned in their chosen field, they see evidence of creation, not evolution. An ever-increasing explosion of knowledge in the sciences only added to the massive weight of evidence in favor of creation science. But, at last, careful researchers were beginning to openly scoff at evolutionary theory in professional journals. Leading paleontologists, such as *Gould and Stanley, were brazenly flaunting the foolishness of Darwin's legacy; but, unfortunately they were substituting strange new fairy tales that were utterly opposed to reality, common sense, genetics, mutational studies, or mathematical probabilities. Something had to be done.

In October 1980, the world's leading evolutionists met in Chicago in a special Evolution Conference.

"The central question of the Chicago conferences was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution."—*Roger Lewin, "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire," in Science, November 21, 1980.

"Microevolution" is change within a species, but this is adaptation and not evolution, as most experts will admit. "Macroevolution" is change between species, and must always lie at the heart of evolutionary theory. Without macroevolution, evolution does not occur. At the 1980 Chicago meeting:

"In October 1980, . . a conference was held in Chicago on one of the hottest issues in evolutionary studies. The respected magazine, Science, organ of the American Association of the Advancement of Science, called it `a historic conference' which `challenges the four-decade long dominance of the Modern Synthesis.' `We all went home with our heads spinning,' said one participant. `Clashes of personality and academic sniping created palpable tension in an atmosphere that was fraught with genuine intellectual ferment,' Science reported."—*G.R. Taylor, Great Evolution Mystery (1983), p. 55.

Open attacks were hurled at evolutionary theory, and men desperate for solutions sought for answers.

"Feuds concerning the theory of evolution exploded . . Entrenched positions, for and against, were established in high places, and insults lobbed like mortar bombs from either side."—*Francis Hitching, The Neck of the Giraffe (1982), p. 12.

Yes, arguments took place, even some shouting. The conclusion of the majority was that there is no evidence of evolution, and we have no way of demonstrating that it is occurring now or has ever occurred.

"At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear No."—*Roger Lewin, The Neck of the Giraffe (1982), p. 12.

*Newsweek for November 3, 1980, carried an article on the Chicago meeting. You may wish to read it for yourself. The large majority of evolutionists at the conference agreed that the neo-Darwinian mechanism of mutation and natural selection could no longer be regarded by professionals as scientifically valid or tenable. Neither the origin nor the diversity of living creatures could be explained by evolutionary theory.

A year later, *Robert Jastrow, a leading scientist wrote:

"To their chagrin [scientists] have no clear-cut answer, because chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature's experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how that happened . . Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."—*Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (1981), p. 19.

Of the scientists attending that meeting, some in desperation decided that the only solution was to join *Gould and *Stanley in viewing hopeful monsters as the means by which species change occurred! To coin a phrase that might be worthy of Shakespeare: "Ah, desperation, thou hast made men mad."

The 1980 meeting was held in Chicago's Field Museum and was attended by 160 of the world's top paleontologists, anatomists, evolutionary geneticists, and developmental biologists.

"[Evolution] is undergoing its broadest and deepest revolution in nearly 50 years . . Exactly how evolution happened is now a matter of great controversy among biologists . . No clear resolution of the controversies was in sight [at the meeting]."—*Boyce Rensberger, "Macroevolution Theory Stirs Hottest Debate Since Darwin," in The Riverside (California) Enterprise, p. E9; *Roger Lewin, "Evolutionary Theory under Fire," Science, November 21, 1980, pp. 883-887.

It was decided that no record would be kept of the sessions, in order not to give ammunition to the creationists. The rapid accumulation of evidence against evolutionary theory had brought a crisis of such proportions that most of those in attendance decided to repudiate a cardinal Darwinian doctrine; they agreed that small changes from generation to generation within a species could never accumulate to produce a new species.

In its place, the Alice-in-Wonderland theory of "punctuated equilibria" was given prominence. This view teaches that sudden massive mutations produced "hopeful monsters"—and made all our modern species. It was at the 1980 meeting that the majority of leading scientists present decided in desperation to adopt the basic "hopeful monster" theory of *Goldschmidt, *Stanley, and *Gould.

Men act as if they are chained to a cart and must go wherever it carries them. They dare not get off of it, for to do so is admit a terrible fact which they do not wish to consider.

"According to an article in Newsweek (November 3, 1980), at a conference in mid-October at Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, the majority of 160 of the world's top paleontologists, anatomists, evolutionary geneticists, and developmental biologists agreed to abandon Darwinian evolution in favor of punctuated equilibria, otherwise known as the hopeful monster theory.

"Apparently, Darwin's theory had become indefensible to them, citing particularly the absence of intermediate fossils as the conflicting fact. The hopeful monster theory is a retreat to what appears to be reliable geological evidence, namely, the general stringing-out of fossils from `simple' to `complex' in the rock strata."—Randall Hedtke, "Asa Gray Vindicated," in Creation Research Society Quarterly, June 1981, p. 74.

Originally posted by Lana
On the topic? So long as it's not in a science textbook. Because it most certainly does NOT belong there.

As I said it should be optional and for academic purposes only.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
That's an oxymoronic question..Both have "credible" evidence supporting them...and neither theory has been proven as of yet. Anyway I've given just as much evidence as Lana has supporting "Creationism"..scan back through the previous pages if you want to find it...

A geocities site is NOT a credible source, and not one of those sites had a shred of evidence. There IS no evidence for creationism, it's merely people believing what they want.

You want to believe in creationism, fine. But do not try and pass it off as a science.

Originally posted by Lana
Just because the church finally woke up doesn't mean there aren't still people out there that believe that.
but it is just insane. and impossible.

Originally posted by Clovie
but it is just insane. and impossible.

I know. But surprisingly enough there ARE still people that believe in a literal translation of creationism. I can't understand WHY...they're probably the same people who believe that contraception is evil.

heh. Contraception is sinful. However ,that's entirely off topic.

Is it just me, or has my evidence against evolution been glossed over and ignored yet again?

Originally posted by Lana

A geocities site is NOT a credible source, and not one of those sites had a shred of evidence. There IS no evidence for creationism, it's merely people believing what they want.

You want to believe in creationism, fine. But do not try and pass it off as a sci

Well that's not fair..I've given the same amount of evidence you've given..links to web sites. Regarding your previous post..Please explain to me how the this reply that you've given answers the question Where's the missing link?


which part of "missing" forms a difficulty to understand?

furthermore, they can backtrace the human origin back to almost 7 million years ago... creationism can't even go back 4000 years in time

I don't see any mention in that post of a missing link being found. That's because there has not been one. This is a very simple truth. Debate this point all you wish, but this fact will remain the same.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Here we go. Everything I could find on that 1980 Evolutionists meeting, and all cited, as well.

For decades, men had to silently accept evolutionary theory in order to graduate with a doctorate and enter a field of science. Everywhere they turned in their chosen field, they see evidence of creation, not evolution. An ever-increasing explosion of knowledge in the sciences only added to the massive weight of evidence in favor of creation science. But, at last, careful researchers were beginning to openly scoff at evolutionary theory in professional journals. Leading paleontologists, such as *Gould and Stanley, were brazenly flaunting the foolishness of Darwin's legacy; but, unfortunately they were substituting strange new fairy tales that were utterly opposed to reality, common sense, genetics, mutational studies, or mathematical probabilities. Something had to be done.

In October 1980, the world's leading evolutionists met in Chicago in a special Evolution Conference.

"The central question of the Chicago conferences was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution."—*Roger Lewin, "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire," in Science, November 21, 1980.

"Microevolution" is change within a species, but this is adaptation and not evolution, as most experts will admit. "Macroevolution" is change between species, and must always lie at the heart of evolutionary theory. Without macroevolution, evolution does not occur. At the 1980 Chicago meeting:

"In October 1980, . . a conference was held in Chicago on one of the hottest issues in evolutionary studies. The respected magazine, Science, organ of the American Association of the Advancement of Science, called it `a historic conference' which `challenges the four-decade long dominance of the Modern Synthesis.' `We all went home with our heads spinning,' said one participant. `Clashes of personality and academic sniping created palpable tension in an atmosphere that was fraught with genuine intellectual ferment,' Science reported."—*G.R. Taylor, Great Evolution Mystery (1983), p. 55.

Open attacks were hurled at evolutionary theory, and men desperate for solutions sought for answers.

"Feuds concerning the theory of evolution exploded . . Entrenched positions, for and against, were established in high places, and insults lobbed like mortar bombs from either side."—*Francis Hitching, The Neck of the Giraffe (1982), p. 12.

Yes, arguments took place, even some shouting. The conclusion of the majority was that there is no evidence of evolution, and we have no way of demonstrating that it is occurring now or has ever occurred.

"At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear No."—*Roger Lewin, The Neck of the Giraffe (1982), p. 12.

*Newsweek for November 3, 1980, carried an article on the Chicago meeting. You may wish to read it for yourself. The large majority of evolutionists at the conference agreed that the neo-Darwinian mechanism of mutation and natural selection could no longer be regarded by professionals as scientifically valid or tenable. Neither the origin nor the diversity of living creatures could be explained by evolutionary theory.

A year later, *Robert Jastrow, a leading scientist wrote:

"To their chagrin [scientists] have no clear-cut answer, because chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature's experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how that happened . . Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."—*Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (1981), p. 19.

Of the scientists attending that meeting, some in desperation decided that the only solution was to join *Gould and *Stanley in viewing hopeful monsters as the means by which species change occurred! To coin a phrase that might be worthy of Shakespeare: "Ah, desperation, thou hast made men mad."

The 1980 meeting was held in Chicago's Field Museum and was attended by 160 of the world's top paleontologists, anatomists, evolutionary geneticists, and developmental biologists.

"[Evolution] is undergoing its broadest and deepest revolution in nearly 50 years . . Exactly how evolution happened is now a matter of great controversy among biologists . . No clear resolution of the controversies was in sight [at the meeting]."—*Boyce Rensberger, "Macroevolution Theory Stirs Hottest Debate Since Darwin," in The Riverside (California) Enterprise, p. E9; *Roger Lewin, "Evolutionary Theory under Fire," Science, November 21, 1980, pp. 883-887.

It was decided that no record would be kept of the sessions, in order not to give ammunition to the creationists. The rapid accumulation of evidence against evolutionary theory had brought a crisis of such proportions that most of those in attendance decided to repudiate a cardinal Darwinian doctrine; they agreed that small changes from generation to generation within a species could never accumulate to produce a new species.

In its place, the Alice-in-Wonderland theory of "punctuated equilibria" was given prominence. This view teaches that sudden massive mutations produced "hopeful monsters"—and made all our modern species. It was at the 1980 meeting that the majority of leading scientists present decided in desperation to adopt the basic "hopeful monster" theory of *Goldschmidt, *Stanley, and *Gould.

Men act as if they are chained to a cart and must go wherever it carries them. They dare not get off of it, for to do so is admit a terrible fact which they do not wish to consider.

"According to an article in Newsweek (November 3, 1980), at a conference in mid-October at Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, the majority of 160 of the world's top paleontologists, anatomists, evolutionary geneticists, and developmental biologists agreed to abandon Darwinian evolution in favor of punctuated equilibria, otherwise known as the hopeful monster theory.

"Apparently, Darwin's theory had become indefensible to them, citing particularly the absence of intermediate fossils as the conflicting fact. The hopeful monster theory is a retreat to what appears to be reliable geological evidence, namely, the general stringing-out of fossils from `simple' to `complex' in the rock strata."—Randall Hedtke, "Asa Gray Vindicated," in Creation Research Society Quarterly, June 1981, p. 74.

Finally..well done..but you know how hard headed people are in these forumns..I'm sure they'll find some clever way to twist the facts around..