RotS Vader vs OT Vader

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok I guess we can't use the battle scenes from the films as a fact because in ANH we know he wants to kill Obi badly, still he is really slow and not effective at all, yet when he faces Luke in ESB who he doesent wanna kill he is much faster. LMAO.

Vader didn't exactly go and kill all the jedi himself, he let the clones take most of them out.

If Vader is almost undefetable how come his defence is penetrated by some silly attacks, him losing to a reincarnation of Darth Maul who didn't even posses all his power or skills (he was lucky and stabbed Maul in the back while he was about to finish him).

Darth Vader (mech) can also get very cocky, for example when he faced Luke in ESB, he got a strike on his shoulder. He was lucky that Luke didn't hit his head. Luke also kicked him down from that platform, and he was counting Luke for knocked out when he fell into the carbon pit. Don't you think he would get cocky seeing his younger self.

1.OT fights cant be used as proper ways to look at Luke and Vaders saber skills due to the fact there almost 40 years old.

2.Proof?

3.WTF? First I do not believe the wacko comic that the fight took place in is canon, and secondly Vader won anyways...

4.Vader isnt cocky, Luke just got a shot in at that instance because Vader wasnt trying to kill him just capture him and Luke suddenly started using his anger and suprised him. Vader made sure it didnt happen again and promptly sliced Lukes arm off if you dont recall.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Like Ive been saying all along, OT vader owns ROTS vader. Darkstar already made the points that I was going to make, and they eclipse the reasons why ROTS vader might win.

ROTS Vader did not do many mistakes against ROTS Obi-Wan who barley survived, and there Anakin was consumed by anger for both of his best friends lying to him and betraying him. Anakin does not just stab himself with the lightsaber or jump into someone elses, he is an excellent fighter and a great duellist.

What? He could have fought as he did in ESB all along? Then why didn't he? He wanted to kill Obi-Wan more than anything, would he play with him then, I don't think so.

What do you mean keeping his head cool? He lost both fights, but was lucky in one. If that's how he fights smart then I can only imagen how this would end.

As far as we know, ROTS Vader defence was never really penetrated, he was defeated by Obi-Wan because he was using the enviroment to his advantage. We have seen Darth Vader's defence being broken through some times, and that is by an un-trained jedi and a weaker version of a sith apprentice.
If I'm right, this is a fight on just plain ground which means no high grounds (that's usually how it plays out except if the creator tells us where it is).

Sorry if this came out harsh, didn't mean it like that.

Luke only got that hit in because it was a desperate attack. He let down his defences and took a bold swing because he knew he was outclassed. Nothing against Luke at this point, he was very powerful, but was beaten. Vader could have killed Luke right then, just he wanted him to join him. Well, I'll be quiet now or else I'll end up going scene by scene in a movie you have already seen (whoa).

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.OT fights cant be used as proper ways to look at Luke and Vaders saber skills due to the fact there almost 40 years old.

2.Proof?

3.WTF? First I do not believe the wacko comic that the fight took place in is canon, and secondly Vader won anyways...

4.Vader isnt cocky, Luke just got a shot in at that instance because Vader wasnt trying to kill him just capture him and Luke suddenly started using his anger and suprised him. Vader made sure it didnt happen again and promptly sliced Lukes arm off if you dont recall.

1. GL has said that it's nothing wrong to the way they fight, it's supposed to be like that (though I doubt he would say that if he made them after the PT).

2. Most of the jedi we're killed in the temple purge. While the whole background is filled with laser, we see clones and jedi fighting everywhere, we see Vader walking into a room of younglings.
If you play BF2 you will play as the 501st legion, they said they went with Vader when he assassinated the jedi's that were left. I doubt they would just stand and watch Vader duel multiple jedi alone.
No big experience given there since he had an army firing at them from behind.

3. I'll check if it's canon or not.

4. Well yeah, he underestimated Luke because he was a mere padawan. And Vader was ready, Luke was lying on his back, he hit Vader's lightsaber and got up, then stroke again and after some hits he got his shoulder.

Originally posted by kamikz
1. GL has said that it's nothing wrong to the way they fight, it's supposed to be like that (though I doubt he would say that if he made them after the PT).

2. Most of the jedi we're killed in the temple purge. While the whole background is filled with laser, we see clones and jedi fighting everywhere, we see Vader walking into a room of younglings.
If you play BF2 you will play as the 501st legion, they said they went with Vader when he assassinated the jedi's that were left. I doubt they would just stand and watch Vader duel multiple jedi alone.
No big experience given there since he had an army firing at them from behind.

3. I'll check if it's canon or not.

4. Well yeah, he underestimated Luke because he was a mere padawan. And Vader was ready, Luke was lying on his back, he hit Vader's lightsaber and got up, then stroke again and after some hits he got his shoulder.

1.Exactly, if George made the fight in current times there would be current standards to the quality of the combat.

2.Yes most were killed in the purge, but many still survived and it was Vaders job to eliminate the remainders. By OT times all except Ben and Yoda were dead.

3.You do that, it wouldnt matter either way because Vader still won.

4.I cant recall exactly how the fight went, I havent seen the movie in atleast a year. Ill watch the movie again if I have the time.

EDIT: If I sounded harsh or arrogant I apologize. Months of being in this hostile enviroment has rubbed off on me.

ROTS Vader did not do many mistakes against ROTS Obi-Wan who barley survived, and there Anakin was consumed by anger for both of his best friends lying to him and betraying him. Anakin does not just stab himself with the lightsaber or jump into someone elses, he is an excellent fighter and a great duellist.
Sure he is great but he is not on the level of master duelist and it still was his arrogance wich led to his downfall, this happened with Dooku also in AotC. We can expect him to make mistakes in this fight.

What? He could have fought as he did in ESB all along? Then why didn't he? He wanted to kill Obi-Wan more than anything, would he play with him then, I don't think so.

Still doesn't change the fact that the ESB way of fighting is canon.

What do you mean keeping his head cool? He lost both fights, but was lucky in one. If that's how he fights smart then I can only imagen how this would end.
Explain yourself please. What are you refering to?

As far as we know, ROTS Vader defence was never really penetrated, he was defeated by Obi-Wan because he was using the enviroment to his advantage
Obi Wan didn't really use the environment to his advantage, he is also not used to fighting in this way. But he managed to keep his head cool and prevail.
Also.. Maybe his defences did not get broken. It doesn't matter. OT Vader will do this.

We have seen Darth Vader's defence being broken through some times, and that is by an un-trained jedi and a weaker version of a sith apprentice.
That is a whole other discussion. It's major speculation on Lukes part.
I will focus on OT Vader instead.

If I'm right, this is a fight on just plain ground which means no high grounds (that's usually how it plays out except if the creator tells us where it is).
Don't worry about high grounds. OT Vader does not need a higher ground to win just because ROTS Vader made a miscalculation. OT Vader wins on other levels also.

Sorry if this came out harsh, didn't mean it like that.

Don't worry about that, but erm.. I still don't see an argument that ROTS Vader will defeat OT Vader. I now only see arguments trying to debunk my previous comments.
Should we go on?

Well.. Time to go to bed for me.

Good luck to potential continuers.
I trust nobody screws up or gets the thread closed? 😛

He was way more arrogant in AOTC.
Sure he is able to beat a master, he beated Dooku.

In the fight with Obi-Wan he was insane with anger, still he was standing up to Obi-Wan very well, almost defeated him. Obi-Wan had a much better defence than OT Vader, both in style and in stamina, agility and speed, yet he was pushed to the edge of that while fighting an insane Anakin.

We can't debate about the movie fights (ANH and ESB) since all the films are canon yet are showing different stuff.

Ok, the only thing I saw was Vader being beaten by a mere padawan and you should be the one saying what's wrong with using that as an argument cause to me it clearly seems that OT Vader was rusty. We can't just focus around the person Vader, we must focus around his accomplishments and his faliures.

I can't see OT Vader beating ROTS Obi-Wan and I can't see Obi-Wan defeating Anakin without an high ground. They were pretty much equal, there was no clear winner, and yes he did use the enviroment.

Originally posted by kamikz
Sure he is able to beat a master, he beated Dooku.

Yeah, he beated Dooku real baayyd.

Okay...........Vader did have 20+ years of sith training, way more fighting experience, he was so much stronger, he had more of a battlemind( meaning he could find a weakness and exploit it), he took a lightsaber hit to the chest and shoulder and as Jollyjim said, he didn't give it a second thought. Pre- suit Vader may be faster, but I'm willing to bet Luke was faster than Vader to.. Also OT Vader doesn't underestimate his opponents. Ot Vader I'm saying wins this.

Originally posted by kamikz
Clearly, he couldent outsmart Luke who was just swinging his lightsaber back and forthö

At least swinging back and forth kept Vader on his guard, no chance to saber lock. And at least he wasn't spinning his lightsaber really fast then kinda hitting sabers then flipping then spinning then kinda glancing sabers again...