Full Power DCU Spectre vs. Phoenix Force

Originally posted by Dizzle
Since when has PF been proven to be God? We know Spectre's power comes from the Presence. If TOAA is indeed equal to the Presence, and PF is below TOAA, then Spectre still wins.

TOAA = Presence

Phoenix avatars are vessels for TOAA's essence. They die or transcend their former existence and are reborn as avatars. They take on the name phoenix and generate the Phoenix energy signature as a symbol of their death and then subsequent rebirth into higher beings. Take a look at that IG Vs Phoenix thread. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown is top of the phoenix hierarchy the phoenixes are likened in current marvel continuity to seraphim making jean more akin to Archangel Michael of DC. Spectre is more like LT.

Spectre derives his power from Pres. Spectre is also below Presence just like Jugg is below Cyttorrak

Lucifer and Michael are not as powerful as the Presence. Like Whirly said, Infinite power is infinite power. You can't get much infinite-er than God. I think the Great Evil beast is the opposite of the Presence, the only thing it doesn't have power over. All of the above would beat the shit out of the PF.

The Seraphim thing isn't directly stated. The heirarchy is mimiced, but no one says that the "God" of that heirarchy is necessarily TOAA. I gave 2 book references on the subject in your little IG vs. PF thread.

I say God😖eraphims:😛F:Avatars. It's an analogy, which doesn't tell you anything about their relationship in power to TOAA at all.

And yes, Spectre is below the Presence, but the Presence can give him all the power he wants to, meaning the Spectre can, in essence, do anything that the Presence can, with a proper amount of backing from the Presence.

"Lucifer and Michael are not as powerful as the Presence"

No theyre not yet they are his favourites and they reguarly trounce Spectre. Going by current continuity Jean as Phoenix of the white crown is akin to Archanel Michangel and LT akin to Spectre although unlike his DC counterpart LT's power levels do not fluctuate.

"The Seraphim thing isn't directly stated"

No it isnt however it is so heavily suggested and the comics are so saturated with the symbology that it cant be ignored. Only those who just gloss over their comics and focus on the pretty pictures would fail to take note of it.

I meant that it never establishes that religious God is paralleled by TOAA, meaning that the fact that they have roles similar to angels does not mean that they would have power akin to that of angels like Michael... Stop trying to twist words.

I'd say the full potential of the Spectre would beat LT, because his power DOES fluctuate, according to the situation.

Spectre wins.

Why would TOAA beat The Presance look at there hiracy's TOAA's top guy is LT while The Presance has guys who are higher then LT in a drop of a hat and to think The Spectre is not even the higest on that list. The Source is kind of like the PF for DC and it seems that not even It can defeat Lucifer Morningstar i say that cause Lucifer Morningstar treats The Source like a nobody.

If the Presence really wanted Lucifer dead, Spectre would probly be able to kill him... Creations are nothing, Presence and TOAA are, for all intents and purposes, equal.

Originally posted by Dizzle
If the Presence really wanted Lucifer dead, Spectre would probly be able to kill him... Creations are nothing, Presence and TOAA are, for all intents and purposes, equal.

True. For that matter, TOAA could empower Aunt May with enough power to put the slap down on the LT...That's ultimately irrelevant.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
True. For that matter, TOAA could empower Aunt May with enough power to put the slap down on the LT...That's ultimately irrelevant.

True. It'd be like when Galactus turned Aunt May into Golden Oldie.

This time, however, it's Golden Oldie X infinity.

Originally posted by Dizzle
I meant that it never establishes that religious God is paralleled by TOAA, meaning that the fact that they have roles similar to angels does not mean that they would have power akin to that of angels like Michael... Stop trying to twist words.

I'd say the full potential of the Spectre would beat LT, because his power DOES fluctuate, according to the situation.

Marvels supreme being is TOAA that is common knowledge and fact in Marvel continuity. DC's supreme being is Pres. Thats all we need to know. Marvel has cleverly opted not to go for the whole religious theme with their supreme beings. The readers of Marvels comics arent all of one religion so i believe it was clever of Marvel not to opt for a particular religions take on things when dealing with their higher beings. That doesnt mean DC's are more powerful just because they directly link their comics higher being to a Christian real world God. If thats where you were going with your past posts id be very careful if i was you.

Jean is the Phoenix of the white Crown. Top of the seraphim likened phoenix hierarchy making her an archangel. LT has been shown to be Marvels equivalent of Spectre. With LT being a cosmic judge appointed by TOAA and Spec being Gods wrath.

We cant directly assess who is more powerful than the other. Thats too hard and pointless when its between beings above Eternity level. Howdo you compare each characters measure of infinity. Exactly you cant.

The only way to settle this is by going by their feats and showings in comics. While thats not ideal its alot better than arguing over who's the equivalent of who.

Agreed?

The Spectre almost took over Heaven. He was one of the only beings to just slow down Anti-Monitor, He made Parallax scared, He is not part of the creative process of DCU like Pheonix was so you cant really use Him not creating the universe as a point, Pheonix on the other hand has been shown to be beaten by guys just under the power of Eternity when This Universes PF was consumed by The Goblin Force but if you were to put all of the PF's into the main PF i still dont think She'd have more power then the whole of the multiverse only Beyonder was a being ever able to do that not even Eternity can do that, also The Brothers i dont think there are many beings at all who can equal the combined power of the multiverse sept TOAA and The Presance or BOTH Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar oh and if it takes Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Moringstar to create a multiverse while TOAA has to drain all His powers on creating the MU doesnt that make The Presance more powerful since He is said to be more powerful then The Angels combined???????//

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean is the Phoenix of the white Crown. Top of the seraphim likened phoenix hierarchy making her an archangel. LT has been shown to be Marvels equivalent of Spectre. With LT being a cosmic judge appointed by TOAA and Spec being Gods wrath.

Galactic Storm:Marvels supreme being is TOAA that is common knowledge and fact in Marvel continuity.Marvel has cleverly opted not to go for the whole religious theme with their supreme beings.

Therefore, TOAA does not equal Phoenix Force. As for the Creator, the White Crown, and Seraphim sh!t - it has nothing to do with TOAA. As you yourself acknowledged, TOAA is Marvel's supreme being - and Marvel has "opted not to go for the whole religious theme with their supreme beings."

Every cosmic story has pointed to LT as second only to TOAA. Where you get this idea that LT is below PF is beyond me. Make your arguments about PF having religious symbols and such that point to this and to that all you want to - BUT IT REMAINS that Marvel DOES NOT want to have their supreme being having any religious theme to it.

Agreed?

Nope. Full powered Spectre (below Presence) is equal to LT IMO. PF would get stomped by Spectre.

As for Lucifer and Michael, Spectre was never at full power when he went up against either. Heck, Spectre got his ass kicked by Michael as he tried to demand to speak to the Presence. Guess what, Presence didn't want to speak Spectre - that's why Michael was able to stomp him.

Exactly, Presence has never commanded the Spectre to fight Michael or Lucifer... I'd also say that if the Presence willed the Spectre to destroy LT, he could do it... But that's just me.

"
Galactic Storm:Marvels supreme being is TOAA that is common knowledge and fact in Marvel continuity.Marvel has cleverly opted not to go for the whole religious theme with their supreme beings.

Therefore, TOAA does not equal Phoenix Force. As for the Creator, the White Crown, and Seraphim sh!t - it has nothing to do with TOAA. As you yourself acknowledged, TOAA is Marvel's supreme being - and Marvel has "opted not to go for the whole religious theme with their supreme beings." "

Have you ever heard of a thing called an aspect? I think if you reread through my postst on the Phoenix/TOAA thing you'll see that word crops up quite a lot.

DC has the source, the word etc . Different parts of Presence which are treated as separate even when it comes to rankings yet are still part of the same whole.

A phoenix is a union between one with phoenix potential and THE primal force of creation. The force that is everything and created everything. This force is said to be second only to TOAA. Yet Jean is called Phoenix OF the white crown. The White Crown title making her a sephiroth a vessel for the essence of GOD. But wait a minute. A phoenix is s union between a phoenix potential type and THE primal force of creation so guess what that means guys. That force is an aspect of TOAA. Its common sense really. You would think the supreme being of all existence would at least have something to do with the creation of all that is.

"quote:

Agreed?

Nope."

Well actually i was talking to Dizzle who ive enjoyed debating with for the past few hours. 🙄

"As for Lucifer and Michael, Spectre was never at full power when he went up against either. Heck, Spectre got his ass kicked by Michael as he tried to demand to speak to the Presence. Guess what, Presence didn't want to speak Spectre - that's why Michael was able to stomp him."

Marvel deals with equivalents. I never once said Jean is Michael or whatver. I said she is akin to him in terms of his role as an archangel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]"
Have you ever heard of a thing called an aspect? I think if you reread through my postst on the Phoenix/TOAA thing you'll see that word crops up quite a lot.

DC has the source, the word etc . Different parts of Presence which are treated as separate even when it comes to rankings yet are still part of the same whole.

A phoenix is a union between one with phoenix potential and THE primal force of creation. The force that is everything and created everything. This force is said to be second only to TOAA. Yet Jean is called Phoenix OF the white crown. The White Crown title making her a sephiroth a vessel for the essence of GOD. But wait a minute. A phoenix is s union between a phoenix potential type and THE primal force of creation so guess what that means guys. That force is an aspect of TOAA. Its common sense really. You would think the supreme being of all existence would at least have something to do with the creation of all that is.

Let me explain this to you. Marvel does not went their supreme being with religious themes to it. PF does not have any relation to TOAA. And aspect? Your only guessing she does. LT serves TOAA. Nobody has ever stated PF as an aspect of TOAA. Nor has anything proven that TOAA has any relations with PF.

Primal force and creation are used alot. It's like the word "GOD." They're thrown around alot. Heck, Thanos with the IG called himself GOD. Warlock himself called himself GOD and thought himself as such. Magus called himself GOD when he had the IG.

Primal force = really old power
creation = anything created

Marvel deals with equivalents. I never once said Jean is Michael or whatver. I said she is akin to him in terms of his role as an archangel.

Adam Warlock - the father
Magus - the son
Goddess - the holy spirit

Together they are GOD - or was GOD when Warlock had the IG. Warlock seperated himself from both good (Goddess) and evil (Magus) to become a logical GOD.

Anyways, Magus is akin to Lucifer in terms of his role. Blah blah blah. There, I just created my Holy Trinity.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Exactly, Presence has never commanded the Spectre to fight Michael or Lucifer... I'd also say that if the Presence willed the Spectre to destroy LT, he could do it... But that's just me.

Yup, I wholefully agree. The Presence would not give Spectre all of his power, but he can give Spectre power that tops ANYONE in the multiverse(except TGEB).

"Let me explain this to you. Marvel does not went their supreme being with religious themes to it. PF does not have any relation to TOAA. And aspect? Your only guessing she does. LT serves TOAA. Nobody has ever stated PF as an aspect of TOAA. Nor has anything proven that TOAA has any relations with PF."

You of all people explain anything comic book related to me? LOL. Thats quite laughable.

All you've done basically is restate my point. I know that Marvel doesnt want their supreme beings to have religious themes. I was the one who said that in my post so why would you have to explain any of that to me? *sigh* That is exactly the reason why its heavily suggested INSTEAD. Through a saturation of symbology and the uses of phrases and terms which directly link Jean to GOD. Not A god THE GOD. Marvel have just heavily suggeested all of this and its quite apparent for those who delve into comics for their hidden depths among other things as opposed to the pretty artwork.

"
Primal force and creation are used alot. It's like the word "GOD." They're thrown around alot. Heck, Thanos with the IG called himself GOD. Warlock himself called himself GOD and thought himself as such. Magus called himself GOD when he had the IG.

Primal force = really old power
creation = anything created"

Youre quite correct. They are thrown around a lot. However when used together as is the case for Phoenix they take on a whole different meaning. Jean is one with THE PRIMAL FORCE OF CREATION making her a phoenix. Understood? Cool.

" Adam Warlock - the father
Magus - the son
Goddess - the holy spirit

Together they are GOD - or was GOD when Warlock had the IG. Warlock seperated himself from both good (Goddess) and evil (Magus) to become a logical GOD.

Anyways, Magus is akin to Lucifer in terms of his role. Blah blah blah. There, I just created my Holy Trinity."

Nice idea. Rubbish execution. Theres a difference my boy, a big difference. Adam isnt stated to be linked to the primal force of creation that created and is everything.

Adams name doesnt refer directly to him being a vessel through which God essence can enter the world of man.

Adams story or comics arent rife with symbology and parallels to religious themes. For example he isnt regulated by an unheard voice which sends him into the multiverse below to heal or disinfect from within our plane of existence Kind of like Gods seraphim who traditionally look like fire emblazoned humans with wings who are sent down from the heavens to heal the world of man and put right his wrongdoings. Is it me or does that sound just too painstakingly familiar to ignore. Or maybe thats exactly what you want to do in order to win this debate B? Whats up. Not much going on in the real world?

Get off His back Galacticstorm youd crawl through glass just to prove PF is the best.