Originally posted by Merlyn
now that the series is all wrapped up, does anyone know exactly what allstar supermans 12 challenges were?
Morrison has a freaking brilliant series of ten interviews on Newsarama right now- I think he mentioned something to the idea that he never really meant to show all the 12 challenges; it's more of a framing device for the story.
Quoted from Newsarama at this link: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/100822-Morrison-All-Star2.html
GM: The 12 Labors of Superman were never intended as an isomorphic mapping onto the 12 Labors of Hercules, or for that matter, the specific Stations of the Cross, of which there are 14, I believe. I didn’t even want to do one Labor per issue, so it deliberately breaks down quite erratically through the series for reasons I’ll go into (later).
Yes, there are correspondences, but that’s mostly because we tried to create for our Superman the contemporary “superhero” version of an archetypal solar hero journey, which naturally echoes numerous myths, legends and religious parables.
At the same time, we didn’t want to do an update or a direct copy of any myth you’d seen before, so it won’t work if you try to find one specific mythological or religious “plan” to hang the series on; James Joyce’s honorable and heroic refutation of the rule aside, there’s nothing more dead and dull than an attempt to retell the Odyssey or the Norse sagas scene by scene, but in a modern and/or superhero setting.
For future historians and mythologizers, however, the 12 Labors of Superman may be enumerated as follows:
1. Superman saves the first manned mission to the sun.
2. Superman brews the Super–Elixir.
3. Superman answers the Unanswerable Question.
4. Superman chains the Chronovore.
5. Superman saves Earth from Bizarro–Home.
6. Superman returns from the Underverse.
7. Superman creates Life.
8. Superman liberates Kandor/cures cancer.
9. Superman defeats Solaris.
10. Superman conquers Death.
11. Superman builds an artificial Heart for the Sun.
12.Superman leaves the recipe/formula to make Superman 2.
And one final feat, which typically no–one really notices, is that Lex Luthor delivers his own version of the unified field haiku – explaining the underlying principles of the universe in fourteen syllables – which the P.R.O.J.E.C.T. G–Type philosopher from issue 4 had dedicated his entire life to composing!
You may notice also that the Labors take place over a year – with the solar hero’s descent into the darkness and cold of the Underverse occurring at midwinter/Christmas time (that’s also the only point in the story where we ever see Metropolis at night).
It can also be seen as the sun’s journey over the course of a day – we open in blazing sunshine but halfway through the book, at the end of issue #5, in fact, the solar hero dips below the horizon and begins the night–journey through the hours of darkness and death, before his triumphant resurrection at dawn. That’s why issue 5 ends with the boat to the Underworld and 6 begins with the moon. Clark Kent is crossing the threshold into the subconscious world of memory, shadows, death and deep emotions.
Although they can often have bizarre resonances, specific elements, like the Station Café, are usually put there by Frank Quitely, and are not necessarily secret Dan Brown–style keys to unlocking the mysteries. I think there might be a Station Café opposite the studio where Frank Quitely works and the “SAPIEN” sign on another storefront is a reference to Frank’s studio mate, Dave Sapien. At least he’s not filling the background with dirty words like he used to, given any opportunity
GM: They matter, of course, but the 12 Labors idea is there to show that, as with all myth, the systematic ordering of current events into stories, tales, or legends occurs after the fact.
I’m trying to suggest that only in the future will these particular 12 feats, out of all the others ever, be mythologized as 12 Labors. I suppose I was trying to say something about how people impose meaning upon events in retrospect, and that’s how myth is born. It’s hindsight that provides narrative, structure, meaning and significance to the simple unfolding of events. It’s the backward glance that adds all the capital letters to the list above.
Even Superman isn”t sure how many Labors he’s performed when we see him mulling it over in issue 10.
When you watched it happening, it seemed to be Superman just doing his thing. In the future it’s become THE 12 LABORS OF SUPERMAN!
_________________________________________________________
Read the interviews- they're freaking genius.
Originally posted by Nihilist
is there any good upcoming jumping on points on any superman featured comics,any suggestion would be great.
YES!
I'd go back about two months and pick up James Robinson's first issue. From their, it'll be pretty easy to jump into the twining New Kandor arc and the military attack on Superman arc that are both going on right now. Johns and Robinson are both wonderful, and the new Supergirl writer (Lopresti?) has done more in a couple issues than in all the time she's been introduced to define her character. All three titles connect, the same way as the triangle-covered Superman books in the nineties.
Originally posted by tjcoadythanks is that action comics or superman comic
YES!I'd go back about two months and pick up James Robinson's first issue. From their, it'll be pretty easy to jump into the twining New Kandor arc and the military attack on Superman arc that are both going on right now. Johns and Robinson are both wonderful, and the new Supergirl writer (Lopresti?) has done more in a couple issues than in all the time she's been introduced to define her character. All three titles connect, the same way as the triangle-covered Superman books in the nineties.
Originally posted by tjcoadyVery nice. 👆
Morrison has a freaking brilliant series of ten interviews on Newsarama right now- I think he mentioned something to the idea that he never really meant to show all the 12 challenges; it's more of a framing device for the story.Quoted from Newsarama at this link: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/100822-Morrison-All-Star2.html
GM: The 12 Labors of Superman were never intended as an isomorphic mapping onto the 12 Labors of Hercules, or for that matter, the specific Stations of the Cross, of which there are 14, I believe. I didn’t even want to do one Labor per issue, so it deliberately breaks down quite erratically through the series for reasons I’ll go into (later).
Yes, there are correspondences, but that’s mostly because we tried to create for our Superman the contemporary “superhero” version of an archetypal solar hero journey, which naturally echoes numerous myths, legends and religious parables.
At the same time, we didn’t want to do an update or a direct copy of any myth you’d seen before, so it won’t work if you try to find one specific mythological or religious “plan” to hang the series on; James Joyce’s honorable and heroic refutation of the rule aside, there’s nothing more dead and dull than an attempt to retell the Odyssey or the Norse sagas scene by scene, but in a modern and/or superhero setting.
For future historians and mythologizers, however, the 12 Labors of Superman may be enumerated as follows:
1. Superman saves the first manned mission to the sun.
2. Superman brews the Super–Elixir.
3. Superman answers the Unanswerable Question.
4. Superman chains the Chronovore.
5. Superman saves Earth from Bizarro–Home.
6. Superman returns from the Underverse.
7. Superman creates Life.
8. Superman liberates Kandor/cures cancer.
9. Superman defeats Solaris.
10. Superman conquers Death.
11. Superman builds an artificial Heart for the Sun.
12.Superman leaves the recipe/formula to make Superman 2.And one final feat, which typically no–one really notices, is that Lex Luthor delivers his own version of the unified field haiku – explaining the underlying principles of the universe in fourteen syllables – which the P.R.O.J.E.C.T. G–Type philosopher from issue 4 had dedicated his entire life to composing!
You may notice also that the Labors take place over a year – with the solar hero’s descent into the darkness and cold of the Underverse occurring at midwinter/Christmas time (that’s also the only point in the story where we ever see Metropolis at night).
It can also be seen as the sun’s journey over the course of a day – we open in blazing sunshine but halfway through the book, at the end of issue #5, in fact, the solar hero dips below the horizon and begins the night–journey through the hours of darkness and death, before his triumphant resurrection at dawn. That’s why issue 5 ends with the boat to the Underworld and 6 begins with the moon. Clark Kent is crossing the threshold into the subconscious world of memory, shadows, death and deep emotions.
Although they can often have bizarre resonances, specific elements, like the Station Café, are usually put there by Frank Quitely, and are not necessarily secret Dan Brown–style keys to unlocking the mysteries. I think there might be a Station Café opposite the studio where Frank Quitely works and the “SAPIEN” sign on another storefront is a reference to Frank’s studio mate, Dave Sapien. At least he’s not filling the background with dirty words like he used to, given any opportunity
GM: They matter, of course, but the 12 Labors idea is there to show that, as with all myth, the systematic ordering of current events into stories, tales, or legends occurs after the fact.
I’m trying to suggest that only in the future will these particular 12 feats, out of all the others ever, be mythologized as 12 Labors. I suppose I was trying to say something about how people impose meaning upon events in retrospect, and that’s how myth is born. It’s hindsight that provides narrative, structure, meaning and significance to the simple unfolding of events. It’s the backward glance that adds all the capital letters to the list above.
Even Superman isn”t sure how many Labors he’s performed when we see him mulling it over in issue 10.
When you watched it happening, it seemed to be Superman just doing his thing. In the future it’s become THE 12 LABORS OF SUPERMAN!
_________________________________________________________Read the interviews- they're freaking genius.
For future historians and mythologizers, however, the 12 Labors of Superman may be enumerated as follows:1. Superman saves the first manned mission to the sun.
2. Superman brews the Super–Elixir.
3. Superman answers the Unanswerable Question.
4. Superman chains the Chronovore.
5. Superman saves Earth from Bizarro–Home.
6. Superman returns from the Underverse.
7. Superman creates Life.
8. Superman liberates Kandor/cures cancer.
9. Superman defeats Solaris.
10. Superman conquers Death.
11. Superman builds an artificial Heart for the Sun.
12.Superman leaves the recipe/formula to make Superman 2.
facepalm
That's a cool interview, and he's doing an exciting thing with the whole "society imposes structures on the everyday unfolding of events and eventually turns them into myth where no pattern was originally there." Problem is, you shouldn't need to read an interview to figure out something like that. And by the comments of people in this thread, I'm guessing it's not completely obvious just from reading AS Supes. Hence the problem. As usual, he's a bit too esoteric for his own good. I'd rather not have to read the annotated bibliography, writer interviews, and multiple literary analyses to get something. The great writers have that kind of depth without the confusion.
Same with Batman RIP, which I'm guessing has layers to it that we haven't figured out....and won't until we read JM's comments on it once it's over, since he isn't giving us enough to work with.
I like him. I really do. But he needs a kick in the nuts and a pep talk from Frank Miller before he writes anything new.
Meh. I think Morrison does his best to create a story that on its own is good enough, so that he doesn't have to spell out his little morals and messages throughout. The result is that his ego is too big to not explain the hidden meaning to the whole world afterwards, just to say "look how clever I am!".
I always found myself rolling my eyes when we had to analyze books and literature down to the minute details in order to find some abstract hidden message; I figured the authors didn't really have the whole thing planned out down to the hundredth layer of hidden meaning. Granted, Morrison's comics don't exactly equate to the great novels, but it still gives me a smile to realize there actually are authors that try to convey all of this while attempting to be as subtle as possible.
He's in the wrong business though. Nobody's reading his stuff for essay material, and we're hardly having deep discussions about his work on a comic message board of all places.
So, yeah, probably too esoteric for his own good, but only because he's writing about Superman.
Originally posted by Cavalier
Meh. I think Morrison does his best to create a story that on its own is good enough, so that he doesn't have to spell out his little morals and messages throughout. The result is that his ego is too big to not explain the hidden meaning to the whole world afterwards, just to say "look how clever I am!".I always found myself rolling my eyes when we had to analyze books and literature down to the minute details in order to find some abstract hidden message; I figured the authors didn't really have the whole thing planned out down to the hundredth layer of hidden meaning. Granted, Morrison's comics don't exactly equate to the great novels, but it still gives me a smile to realize there actually are authors that try to convey all of this while attempting to be as subtle as possible.
He's in the wrong business though. Nobody's reading his stuff for essay material, and we're hardly having deep discussions about his work on a comic message board of all places.
So, yeah, probably too esoteric for his own good, but only because he's writing about Superman.
Agreed. It's just that the writers whose legacy he is undoubtedly following (Moore, Gaiman, etc.) aren't as hard to discern. The depth is there in, say, Watchmen or Sandman, but it's not something we need to pry out with a fine-toothed comb.
But yeah, wrong industry. Or at least he's writing the wrong titles, as you suggest. I think Warren Ellis has it down by now. He only does ongoing series occasionally. Otherwise he just does a bunch of his own indie projects that end after 6-7 issues.
And usually the great writers just write the stuff and let everyone else write about it. There's doubtless much less going on in, say, Hamlet than what centuries of analyses have theorized. Morrison needs to step back and shut up...within a few years people would be seeing things even he never thought of, and he'll be considered the genius that he fancies himself.
Originally posted by tjcoady
YES!I'd go back about two months and pick up James Robinson's first issue. From their, it'll be pretty easy to jump into the twining New Kandor arc and the military attack on Superman arc that are both going on right now. Johns and Robinson are both wonderful, and the new Supergirl writer (Lopresti?) has done more in a couple issues than in all the time she's been introduced to define her character. All three titles connect, the same way as the triangle-covered Superman books in the nineties.
you actually like robinson? guess its just me and steve, then... 🙁
and nobody answered my question dammit!