I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that no one else has mentioned Billy Cobham yet. If you're talking time changes, look no further than a jazz drummer; they all make Tool's drummer look like Meg White (though in rock, The Apex Theory's drummer is the best with tempo changes).
Rock drummer: Moon
Overall drummer: Billy Cobham
Do yourself a favor and listen to Quadrant 4 or Spectrum.
Also: Max Roach. Love this guy, especially his work on "Birth of The Cool"
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that no one else has mentioned Billy Cobham yet. If you're talking time changes, look no further than a jazz drummer; they all make Tool's drummer look like Meg White
Possibly the most ridiculous comment made.
But to each their own (despite it being not actually true).
Whether you find him impressive, like him, hate him, or all of those, no drummer on Earth can make Danny Carey look bad. At all.
The only reasons some of us never mentioned Cobham is probably because it's down to overall, I would guess.
I believe Cobham is of course one of the very greatest drummers of all time, with regards to his techncal ability. I believe that title goes to Terry Bozzio. I tend to vote overall on what they write, not what they can play.
-AC
then listen to Spectrum, he wrote that. IT is one of hte most underrated jazz albums of all time.
Saying that Danny Carey's plodding time changes are equal to the fluid style of Billy Cobham is laughable. Cobham did prog rock better than anyone (Mahavishnu Orchestra) he played with Miles Davis (one of hte most taxing things, trying ot keep up with Davis with any instrument) . He played with Sonny Rollins, The Brothers Johnson...the man has played many, many different types of music, and has never failed to impress. More than impress, he has played some of the most difficult music with ease, in a way that any other drummer wishes he could.
I still have not found a fusion or prog rock drummer able to do the things that he did, in two of the most demanding styles of play for a drummer.
As for the MEg White thing, she can't play. It has nothing to do with being a girl, it has to do with being bad.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
then listen to Spectrum, he wrote that. IT is one of hte most underrated jazz albums of all time.
And you're assuming I haven't, because?
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
Saying that Danny Carey's plodding time changes are equal to the fluid style of Billy Cobham is laughable. Cobham did prog rock better than anyone (Mahavishnu Orchestra) he played with Miles Davis (one of hte most taxing things, trying ot keep up with Davis with any instrument) . He played with Sonny Rollins, The Brothers Johnson...the man has played many, many different types of music, and has never failed to impress. More than impress, he has played some of the most difficult music with ease, in a way that any other drummer wishes he could.
Well besides the fact that Danny Carey has over 35 years of hardened experience in every kind of drum technique there is, mastered more or less, I think you're underrating him.
None of what you've said proves anything. Playing with loads of different people doesn't make you great. Josh Freese does that, but he's not (in my opinion) in the running for best of all time. Cobham is because of his ability, without a shadow of doubt, I'm never going to dispute that. But it seems to me like you're leaning more on antiquity than ability and talent. Danny Carey doesn't play "plodding" time changes. Anyone who has actually listened to some of his more complicated Tool work would know that. If you can listen to his fibonacci drum/time sequence on Lateralus and call it plodding, or claim that anyone else could create (or even play) that music, then THAT is laughable.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
I still have not found a fusion or prog rock drummer able to do the things that he did, in two of the most demanding styles of play for a drummer.
So that must, of course, mean there isn't one or many (despite there being some).
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
As for the MEg White thing, she can't play. It has nothing to do with being a girl, it has to do with being bad.
She's not bad, she's just a simple drummer.
-AC
And you're assuming I haven't, because?
Because if you had actually listened, you would have seen the tempo changes that cobham goes through. These are things that almost any other drummer cannot do - and Cobham does it with ease. He literally does things that no other drummer CAN do on this album and havent' done since.
Well besides the fact that Danny Carey has over 35 years of hardened experience in every kind of drum technique there is, mastered more or less, I think you're underrating him.
Billy Cobham not only mastered the styles that are most technically difficult with the drummer, but played with the best in his field. (Jazz, Miles Davis, he went on to Mahavishnu Orchestra, arguably the best prog rock band of all time, and finished his career with fusion-jazz)
Playing with loads of different people doesn't make you great. Josh Freese does that, but he's not (in my opinion) in the running for best of all time.
Playing with A Perfect Circle is a little different than beign good enough to not only play with Miles Davis, but to excel while playing next to him - on classic recordings such as Live-Evil and Bitches Brew, no less. And to help lead Mahavishnu Orchestra - remember, he left with McLaughlin to form the band- after such accomplished jazz work is amazing. This is without even going into his solo work.
But it seems to me like you're leaning more on antiquity than ability and talent.
Antiquity? He's still recording great fusion albums today! And why shoudl it matter if it happened 30 years ago or today. Ability and talent? Cobham has more than nearly anyone else - he is one fo the few to be on the same level as Buddy Rich, Mingus, etc. in the eyes of the musical community.
As for the fibonacci series, duke ellington was using that in his music ages ago - by instinct. And to say that Billy Cobham didn't know of this would be a bit of a stretch in such a tight knit community as the jazz community.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
Because if you had actually listened, you would have seen the tempo changes that cobham goes through. These are things that almost any other drummer cannot do - and Cobham does it with ease. He literally does things that no other drummer CAN do on this album and havent' done since.
Well, no. You're wrong. Me having heard it doesn't mean that I will automatically have the exact same view as you do. You thinking that he has done things no other drummer can do or hasn't done, doesn't mean it's actually true. No drummer has duplicated what he has played because why would they? There are drummers who have done as or more so outstanding things than he did on that album. Might not be a wealth of them, but they exist.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
Billy Cobham not only mastered the styles that are most technically difficult with the drummer, but played with the best in his field. (Jazz, Miles Davis, he went on to Mahavishnu Orchestra, arguably the best prog rock band of all time, and finished his career with fusion-jazz)
I'm aware of that. What's your point? The man is a genius drummer. I've never disputed this. Only the fact that the NUMBER of people with which he played, has no bearing. It's what he played that made the difference, and I'm not arguing that it's amazing or that he's definately one of the best of all time. He's just not the best in my opinion, overall. Technically he may very well be, but then there's Terry Bozzio. Who I have actually seen live. He played with Fantomas, who Dave Lombardo drums for. Dave Lombardo claimed that it took him hours to learn just little pieces of that music. Terry Bozzio was reading it off a sheet and playing it flawlessly for the first time, as the gig was going on.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
Playing with A Perfect Circle is a little different than beign good enough to not only play with Miles Davis, but to excel while playing next to him - on classic recordings such as Live-Evil and Bitches Brew, no less. And to help lead Mahavishnu Orchestra - remember, he left with McLaughlin to form the band- after such accomplished jazz work is amazing. This is without even going into his solo work.
You completely missed my point and just highlighted things we're both aware of, again.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
Antiquity? He's still recording great fusion albums today! And why shoudl it matter if it happened 30 years ago or today. Ability and talent? Cobham has more than nearly anyone else - he is one fo the few to be on the same level as Buddy Rich, Mingus, etc. in the eyes of the musical community.
I know he is, but from your past musical post it seems you value older musical artists than newer ones. Nothing wrong with that at all and I could be wrong. Just going by what I see. It seems you include antiquity into your voting. That's your choice though.
Originally posted by ElectricBugaloo
As for the fibonacci series, duke ellington was using that in his music ages ago - by instinct. And to say that Billy Cobham didn't know of this would be a bit of a stretch in such a tight knit community as the jazz community.
Right. So not only are you assuming that but as a result, that means that Billy Cobham could also play and create it?
-AC
i'm going to have to go with Danny Carey, but Neil Pert is tied with him...because in Neils case he has everything there is in a drummer, he can do it all...i saw his solo once, and it blew me away...but then again so does danny carey, with his chops on Ticks and Leeches. So i could not choose between the two...