Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Well Emperor Revan, I agree with you that Revan is good and all, but he does not have the power you think he does, knowledge possibly, but I'm not sure he has mastered much of it. I think that both Exar and Yoda would beat him (Exar wasting him), we simply do not know enough about Revan other than he is a tactician to say other-wise.Here are some reasons as to why Revan is not as powerful as you may think:
I just faced him in KotOR II (in the hidden tomb on Korriban), I was a level 23, and all I did was do a master flurry with Juyo activated, for a total of three attacks, and he died, he actually never even hit me. I took no damage at all from him. Also remember that this is Revan with his battle pre-cog and his tactics did not help him there. Actually, I am not sure why his tactics would play such a large role; he was a starship commander and would think on a large scale, not one-on-one combat. This is also after the Mandalorian wars. He had all his jedi training and some of his sith training and some of Malachor V’s training. So really he wasn’t as strong as you may think, because after that, he went to war against the Republic for a bit, then got his mind wiped and lost all that he had before. Then he went and fought in KotOR, but he would have learned nothing new, just got some combat experience. This is probably why Malak said he was stronger then when he was before the mind-wipe, he had experience. After that he went and regained his memories, but only after a year, then he instantly went and left for the old sith empire, not doing much more training. So over-all, I think Revan is powerful sure, but not as good as several people seem to think. He was mainly feared for his tactics and ability to lead, neither of which would help him in a battle.
And sure you will come and say he defeated Mandalore and Yusanis, great, that is two that we know of. All of there guards were likely killed by other jedi with Revan to keep him safe.
Oh, about a jedi mistaking him for a padawan without the use of the force, might I remind you that a sith lord mistook one of your party (for me Mira so that is who I will say), for a padawan when she was untrained. Since a sith lord would have a greater knowledge of the force than a padawan would (we know that this is a padawan since she was friends with Juhani and the same age), does this mean that Mira is stronger than Revan? Now I know she is not, but it is an example to show you that you cannot place so much of your faith in one little line.
Actually speaking of one little line, how about Kreia’s line referring to Revan as “the heart of the force.” Well she also said that the Exile was her best student, which is not true. So why does this other line mean so much? I think she may have been partly blinded by her devotion to Revan and described him like that. This is a true example, there was a teacher, and my class was her first class, my class is also a horrible class and the years after us are much better. But she still says that ours was the best class and that nothing can compare in the least to it and this is totally false. So people always hold a fondness to their first, Kreia would very likely be the same. Now I think you will say that Kreia was just trying to make the Exile feel good, which is very likely I admit. But it is equally likely that she said "the heart of the force" comment to make the Exile work harder and become stronger, doesn't that sound she would do, use trickery to make a person work harder and become stronger?
I'm surprised you think Yoda could beat Revan.
Now when you fight him on Korriban, that's just a vision like when Luke fought Vader in that cave. even still, the Revan vision is far stronger than the Kreia and Malak visions and he can easily kill you if you're not paying attention.
Revan was NOT just a full scale combatant. He fought a lot in hand to had combat, probably killing more Force users than anyone else we know of, including Exar Kun. He killed hundreds of Jedi, dark Jedi, Sith apprentices, 2 Sith lords, and the strongest non-Force users in the galaxy. Lord Revan was extremely powerful in his first reign, stronger than Darth Malak. He loses his memories and less than a year later, he's become more powerful than his first reign which was already stronger than Malak who we know was very powerful, stronger than anyone Kun faced IMO.
So he's already more powerful with basically little knowledge and experience, he recovers his full memories including all his Jedi training, teachings, Sith training, teachings, fighting experience, etc. increasing his power quite a bit. He also went to Malachor V again so he probably picked up some Sith artifacts or something but we don't know for sure.
As for his battle pre-cog, you are seriously underestimating it. Handmaiden, and the Exile only had the most basic form of it, barely strong enough to predict the opponent's moves, not just guess at it. They always fight in the future now and that technique really increases your defense on the game. Now there are most who predict moves, few who can predict battles, and barely any who are advanced enough to predict wars. Revan is the only non-echani to be advanced enough to predict wars. Now that doesn't mean that that's all he can predict, on the contrary it means his battle pre-cog (just battle not everday use) was far better than most echanis letting him predict nearly all (or maybe all) of his opponent's moves before they do that. Even as he slaughtered the echani, they still respected him.
Now if it's so advanced then how did the strongest echani die? First, they may know where the move is gonna come from, but they may not be fast enough to stop the blows from a powerful Jedi. And second, Sith and maybe some Jedi, have the ability to cloud one's mind (if they're weak in the Force) so Revan may have been using that against Yusanis when he killed him. The more powerful the Force user, the better they can predict moves. With Revan's immense power and superior battle pre-cog, it would be extremely difficult to even land a kick on him.
Now about the Sith mistaking Mira for a padawan, they're not always without the Force. That Sith will say that wether the leader has been trained to use the Force or not so it's not the best example. He also describes it as wild and untamed whereas the Jedi who talks to Revan thinks he is already a padawan that has control over his power. Revan, barely an apprentice (not even a padawan), within in a couple weeks of the start of his Force training, could levitate his body in the air, along with a datapad and two chairs which he had floating around him.
Now about Kreia's line, Revan was not her first student, more like her third or fourth. If she had said that line to Revan it wouldn't have had as much impact since people will be nicer about you if they're talking to you. When she said to the Exile "you are the best student I have ever trained" she is right because she only knew Revan back when he was a padawan or perhaps even when he was a master. His power would've tripled or something since then. Notice that Darth Sion who is extremely arrogant and thinks the Exile is a wuss, says that he is Kreia's best student SINCE Revan. Even he knows he wouldn't have had a chance against Darth Revan.
Lastly, I truly doubt she was just saying that to make the Exile work harder, she really acts like she is just describing him and she says the Exile is the death of the Force, not a weakling or something. If she had said he was weak, then I could see her trying to get him to train more but she didn't say that.
Kreia loved the Exile the most. Why? Well, she hated the Force. She hated the chaos it caused, and that it dictates the very actions of individuals. She hated those familiar strands of fate that are woven into every action, from a acareless few words to a powerful wave of Force lightning. In short, Kreia hates the Force itself. And the Exile was the death of the Force. I have a theory even, on why she hates it so much.
Revan is superior in power to Kreia. It is rumored that he ordered her to find a way to destroy Nihilus. Thus, she found Exile. Now, as much respect as Kreia may have had for Revan, there would be some resentment there. Revan, a mere youth compared to her, an ancient Force witch and Jedi master, ordering her around. I think the old witch is training the Exile to kill Revan out of spite of being a mere pawn of her former apprentice.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Kreia loved the Exile the most. Why? Well, she hated the Force. She hated the chaos it caused, and that it dictates the very actions of individuals. She hated those familiar strands of fate that are woven into every action, from a acareless few words to a powerful wave of Force lightning. In short, Kreia hates the Force itself. And the Exile was the death of the Force. I have a theory even, on why she hates it so much.Revan is superior in power to Kreia. It is rumored that he ordered her to find a way to destroy Nihilus. Thus, she found Exile. Now, as much respect as Kreia may have had for Revan, there would be some resentment there. Revan, a mere youth compared to her, an ancient Force witch and Jedi master, ordering her around. I think the old witch is training the Exile to kill Revan out of spite of being a mere pawn of her former apprentice.
I like the theory, though I don't agree that Revan wanted to kill Nihilus. Revan was far too busy elsewhere, could've simply blown up his ship, and IMO could've killed him hand to hand. Nihilus couldn't drain the Exile's power because that power had slowly weakened and corrupted him, and yes, the Exile does have his own connection, not just feeding solely from others.
I do think Kreia was training the Exile to kill Revan however. Maybe she thinks the Exile killing Revan (and only the Exile) could somehow kill the Force. Maybe she is jealous of his power or maybe she wants the ancient sith empire to live on and the Exile would be the only remote chance of stopping Revan who was destroying the Sith empire.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I agree a little. I think she wanted his help, but not to kill Revan. She probably wanted to have him kill Nihilus for revenge, Revan probavy had nothing to do with it. After that she didnt care except that she wanted the Exile to help Revan, as said in here dieing moments.
I believe she merely said that the Exile must go where Revan has gone and that perhaps they will do battle.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Would he? KOTOR III will tell us. Stranger things have happened. It is in the vein of the heroic epic that the lesser guy usually comes out on top.
Well Revan is considered the heart of the Force and the Exile the death so Revan would probably win because of that, fans like him much more, and he's more powerful.
I can't see Atton being a master until he's like 60. He just has had too shady a life to turn coat and become a serene, wise Jedi lord. Actually, it would make sense if Atris survived (a la LS ending), helped Brianna rebuild the Order, died soon after, and one of Yoda's race came along to lead this young council.