Personally, I have nothing against the Phoenix entity, but wholly reject Claremont's positioning of her as the highest cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe. Just because it's 'official' now, doesn't mean I have to buy it.
I'll patiently sit back and wait for her to get retconned, then maybe some form of order and sense will be restored to the cosmic hierarchy.
I maintain the position that if she was sooo uberly powerful, where was she in the IG saga? Where was she when LT called for a special session to judge Adam Warlock? Where was she when Thanos took control of the HOTU? Why didn't Warlock seek her out back in the IG affair when he held a meeting of cosmic puppets.
Seems like Claremont is trying to make up for lost time. Too little, too late, Claremont. You can't expect me to just suddenly believe that the Phoenix is everything in the MU, and disregard beings like Eternity and LT. I sense hostile behind the scenes strong-arm tactics by Claremont to once again elevate the status of X-related related characters to ridiculous hights, inflating their importance. It seems pretty obvious that he holds considerable political power over other writers and their characters, and that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
Again, I'll wait for the next retcon.
Originally posted by Lord S
Personally, I have nothing against the Phoenix entity, but wholly reject Claremont's positioning of her as the highest cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe. Just because it's 'official' now, doesn't mean I have to buy it.I'll patiently sit back and wait for her to get retconned, then maybe some form of order and sense will be restored to the cosmic hierarchy.
I maintain the position that if she was sooo uberly powerful, where was she in the IG saga? Where was she when LT called for a special session to judge Adam Warlock? Where was she when Thanos took control of the HOTU? Why didn't Warlock seek her out back in the IG affair when he held a meeting of cosmic puppets.
Seems like Claremont is trying to make up for lost time. Too little, too late, Claremont. You can't expect me to just suddenly believe that the Phoenix is everything in the MU, and disregard beings like Eternity and LT. I sense hostile behind the scenes strong-arm tactics by Claremont to once again elevate the status of X-related related characters to ridiculous hights, inflating their importance. It seems pretty obvious that he holds considerable political power over other writers and their characters, and that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
Again, I'll wait for the next retcon.
I don't think Claremont is trying to make up for anything: he established Phoenix back in the 70s. And considering that Claremont didn't write X-Men Forever, New X-Men or Endsong, I'm not sure what or how he's trying strong arm anyone. Why don't examine Eternity and the Living Tribunal when they appeared early on:
-Eternity engaged in a battle with Dormammu in Strange Tales. Since when does he do stuff like that? If Eternity is so powerful, why didn't he just hand Dormammu his ass and send him packing?
-LT's also first appeared in Strange Tales. Dr. Strange offered some assistance to him while he was in battle, and LT decided to spare the earth. Where was this "top of the food chain" stuff then? He wouldn't have needed Strange's help.
Note that none of the other abstracts appeared until much later.
People consider these beings to be at the top of the cosmic hierarchy, but they didn't achieve their positions there until much later. It wasn't until almost 20 years later that these beings and their roles began to reflect who they are now.
Why is the same not allowed for Phoenix? When Phoenix first appeared, her power was stated up front to be second to that of the creator. It was also stated that anything that she wished would become reality. She began her existence as a being with limitless power. She died and brought herself back to life. There was no concept of Galen dying in the previous universe and being reborn in this universe as Galactus. This idea wasn't cannon until after Jean Grey had died and be reborn as Phoenix. Yet no one complains about Galactus' origin and his power.
The fact is that characters, their powers and the roles become more defined as time moves on. It's happened with all characters. If people want charactes to be like they originally were, then we'd have a Living Tribunal receiving assistance from earth mages (who incidentally wasn't Sorceror Supreme at the time).
The bottom line is that the character and role of Phoenix has been fleshed out more by the House of Ideas, just like other characters have been. I don't understand why people accept growth with some characters and despise it with others.
Later I'll post more on Phoenix and why there was no appearance in any of the big cosmic sagas.
Originally posted by Lord S
Personally, I have nothing against the Phoenix entity, but wholly reject Claremont's positioning of her as the highest cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe. Just because it's 'official' now, doesn't mean I have to buy it.I'll patiently sit back and wait for her to get retconned, then maybe some form of order and sense will be restored to the cosmic hierarchy.
I maintain the position that if she was sooo uberly powerful, where was she in the IG saga? Where was she when LT called for a special session to judge Adam Warlock? Where was she when Thanos took control of the HOTU? Why didn't Warlock seek her out back in the IG affair when he held a meeting of cosmic puppets.
Seems like Claremont is trying to make up for lost time. Too little, too late, Claremont. You can't expect me to just suddenly believe that the Phoenix is everything in the MU, and disregard beings like Eternity and LT. I sense hostile behind the scenes strong-arm tactics by Claremont to once again elevate the status of X-related related characters to ridiculous hights, inflating their importance. It seems pretty obvious that he holds considerable political power over other writers and their characters, and that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
Again, I'll wait for the next retcon.
If there is one. But thats current continuity so i guess you just have to deal with it. Im sure you'll come to embrace the concept with open arms in due time.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm(Theyre all easily downloadable) and do some research into the basic principles of kaballah then it all stands out to you as plain as day. Im not really delving far into anything to come up with the argument i have. It really is quite obvious to anyone who has even basic knowledge of the principles.
This is the Marvel Universe - not the Kaballahverse.
Originally posted by Cosmic FlameAs one of the head writers, or perhaps the head writer, it is conceivable that he holds considerable creative control and other political power over other writers, and their work, behind the scenes.
I don't think Claremont is trying to make up for anything: he established Phoenix back in the 70s. And considering that Claremont didn't write X-Men Forever, New X-Men or Endsong, I'm not sure what or how he's trying strong arm anyone.
This may all be speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that he had a hand in the exclusion of many X-characters and villains (ie. Magneto, Phoenix), in many of the large cosmic crossovers of the early 90s...and in 'The End', where you'd think the mighty Phoenix would show her beak.
Why don't examine Eternity and the Living Tribunal when they appeared early on:IIRC, Dormammu is from another reality...one that Eternity has no power, or control over. Just like he had a difficult time with the Infinites. Nobody is positioning Eternity as the head of the multiverse.-Eternity engaged in a battle with Dormammu in Strange Tales. Since when does he do stuff like that? If Eternity is so powerful, why didn't he just hand Dormammu his ass and send him packing?
-LT's also first appeared in Strange Tales. Dr. Strange offered some assistance to him while he was in battle, and LT decided to spare the earth. Where was this "top of the food chain" stuff then? He wouldn't have needed Strange's help.Perhaps LT's role as top dog in the multiverse wasn't quite established then...you're supposed to ignore little inconsistencies like this in the early life of a character. Just like we disregard the Watcher referring to Galactus as the most powerful being in existence all those years ago.
Why is the same not allowed for Phoenix?Because the inconsistency factor is so glaring and contrived, that's it's very difficult to swallow. Not to mention that it lays to waste everything that has been established by writers like Starlin, who are much better at cosmic stuff.
The fact is that characters, their powers and the roles become more defined as time moves on. It's happened with all characters. If people want charactes to be like they originally were, then we'd have a Living Tribunal receiving assistance from earth mages (who incidentally wasn't Sorceror Supreme at the time).Fine, but as long as writers don't step over the work of other writers that some of us actually appreciate, things would be great. Now I'm hearing about the Phoenix being the one to save Galan from dying, and transforming him to Galactus, when it was ALREADY established that Eternity was the one who did it. Why totally disregard what's already been established, just to push your own character? Seriously stupid.
I don't understand why people accept growth with some characters and despise it with others.Because unlike the 'growth' of X-characters, the maturation is slow and steady...not Storm SUDDENLY being able to draw energy from a star...or Magneto being able to create black holes. Utterly ridiculous.
It's not too much to ask to keep a character within his/her means...yes, improve them, refine them, upgrade them, but keep them within their means. If the type of growth the X-characters are receiving were equal across the board, you'd see Jarvis the Butler a muscle-bound superhero in no time. Would you look at that with much enthusiasm? Now you know how the rest of us feel about X-characters.
There's a lot more to the Marvel Universe than just X-Men, and just cause they're the top-selling book(s), doesn't mean they have to be the most powerful team. Part of the initial intrigue, (for me at least), was the fact that they weren't the most powerful, but were the persecuted...it made for interesting reading, but now it's just way over-the-top...especially with Wolverine.
Later I'll post more on Phoenix and why there was no appearance in any of the big cosmic sagas.I'll definitely wait for it.
""""As one of the head writers, or perhaps the head writer, it is conceivable that he holds considerable creative control and other political power over other writers, and their work, behind the scenes.
This may all be speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that he had a hand in the exclusion of many X-characters and villains (ie. Magneto, Phoenix), in many of the large cosmic crossovers of the early 90s...and in 'The End', where you'd think the mighty Phoenix would show her beak.""""
Why oh why have you brought this thread up again?
Right down to business. Whats your point Lord S even if your unfounded speculation is true? Phoenix not being involved in those big cosmic affairs says nothing of its lack of power. You know that is not the case when beings such as eternity are involved, who phoenix is accreditted with creating and they are seen as major obstacles by whatever villain it is seeking to become top of the cosmic hierarchy. Who know sexactly why phoenix isnt present. Maybe because its beyond such things? Who knows. However its power can not be questioned. Its stated as being second only to TOAA. Phoenix is stated to be the ultimate force at last being able to express itself in our plane of existence.
"""Perhaps LT's role as top dog in the multiverse wasn't quite established then...you're supposed to ignore little inconsistencies like this in the early life of a character. Just like we disregard the Watcher referring to Galactus as the most powerful being in existence all those years ago."""""
Chris Claremont also use to write Dr Strange at the time when he created Phoenix, Phoenix was at the same time stated to be a force second only to TOAA. Its initial concept, one that has been made continuity again now is that the ultimate force, the primal force of creation used jeans discorporation during re-entry as a means to funnel down into our plane of existence, therefore creating phoenix. Phoenix is a force of creation it is not a guardian of the multiverse, it is not a being to be defeated to get to the top of the hierarchy. It is beyond that.
"""""Because the inconsistency factor is so glaring and contrived, that's it's very difficult to swallow. Not to mention that it lays to waste everything that has been established by writers like Starlin, who are much better at cosmic stuff.""""""
Phoenix being retconned into a seperate firebird entity made for many inconsistencies also. It doesnt necessarily lay waste to the work of Starlin if you look at my point above. Phoenix is a force that has the job of creating, maintaining before eventually destroying creation. At which point it stats all over again. It is not a physical being to be overtaken. It is a force. It only has a physical body when its phoenix duties are required in order to maintain creation. For example the M'kraan crystal incident. It was stated that Phoenix is the only power capable of containing the multiversal reset switch that is the crystal. (X-Ternals 3) Phoenix only takes corporeal form when its own brand of work is required. It isnt like LT or its creations the abstracts. Therefore LT as top being isnt usurped by the reversion to the original ideas. Phoenix is a force beyond such affairs, beyond our plane of existence.
""""""Fine, but as long as writers don't step over the work of other writers that some of us actually appreciate, things would be great. Now I'm hearing about the Phoenix being the one to save Galan from dying, and transforming him to Galactus, when it was ALREADY established that Eternity was the one who did it. Why totally disregard what's already been established, just to push your own character? Seriously stupid.""""
Well thats exactly what was done to Phoenix with the 86 retcon. Marvel cant please all groups of fans. Phoenix back before the story of galactus' origin was even created was the force accredited with the creation of all that is. Remember Phoenix is one with all that is, that was established before Galactus' origins as well so knowing now that it was actually phoenix responsible for galactus isnt changing it up that much. Eternity is just a part of the greater force that is phoenix.
Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
I think the person was rooting on your side, you meanie.He or she, just menitoned you in the best debator thead, you should be ashamed.
I wasnt being horrible intentionally sorry im just in that snappy mindset after a long debate with synchro lol. No offense. But seriously read the new phoenix threads not a lot of people seem clued up on phoenix
😆 this thread is funny, franklin richards being above galactus. pheonix as part of the source and toaa, and higher than everyone else...gs you were funny even back then, whoa you crack me up. 😆 pheonix force gets crush on earth, or maybe thats going overboard, earth and the shiar.
galactus and the avengers would destroy her.
or LT would snap her back to the hot room.
The pf two best on panel feats, and not just speculation, is the repairing of the crystal, and the repairing of a wounded universe. Both of which are not multiversal, have any of you read Mr. Master post on why the phoenix force is nothing more then a less then universal power?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=410642&highlight=phoenix+forumid%3A77