Originally posted by DarkYoda
Palps wanted to reveal his true appearance to Anakin in a way that made it look like Mace had disfigured him. If Palps showed Anakin his true appearance without the pretense of Windu disfiguring him Anakin would be like crap... you are an evil son of a ***** aren't you!! You've been pretending to be this other person all along...
wrong. anakin knew he was evil. anakin HATED him, as he stated and palps acknowledged. "I NEED HIM!!!" need him to teach him to use the darkside to prevent padme from dying. the hook was already sunk, no need for any more charades. palps was baiting anakin to attack mace, but anakin was already turned. his choice was already made to join sidious, thus the scene of him staring out the window towards padme's apartment. he was making a choice and the choice was made.
Originally posted by DarkYoda
And yes, Palps did call to Anakin in the Jedi temple. Remember, powerful force users ARE telepathic. Remember Luke calling to Leia? Or Vader calling to Luke? Surely Vader and Palps could communicate telepathically also.
its only been proven that those with a close bond (family) are able to comunicate in such a way. the only 2 to have an actual conversation was luke and vader at the end of ep5. or else, why would vader need to contact palps via hologram?
Originally posted by DarkYoda
Palpatine may have genuinely been disarmed by Mace (unintentionally). But if he had not sensed confusion in Mace Windu (knowing that there was time to play) and sensed Anakin racing over to save him, he would have no doubt unloaded much more powerfully on Windu in the same way he did Yoda! Lightsaber or not, Sidious' lightning blasts are so powerful they can send you flying across the room or knock the lightsaber out of your hand.
no no no. yoda was not bocking, as you can clearly see if you see frame by frame. yoda was hit square in the chest, whereas mace saw it coming and deflected. palps gave him all he had. notice how when yoda was on guard, he took everything palps had to throw at him, and absorbed/deflected the lightning.
Originally posted by DarkYoda
Palpatine had to shock Mace for several reasons... to reveal his appearance and to reveal to Anakin that he truly DID know the darkside power. Anakin had never witnessed Palpatine use the darkside before. Palpatine even says so to Anakin, "I have the power to save the ones you love."
palps was pleading to anakin to attack mace, yes. and the force lightning bought him time, since mace cant deflect and attack at the same time. but there is no way he purposely had mace reflect the lightning back at him. why would he need to reveal his true form? (i agree with the 'true form' theory btw).
Originally posted by PVS
wrong. anakin knew he was evil. anakin HATED him, as he stated and palps acknowledged. "I NEED HIM!!!" need him to teach him to use the darkside to prevent padme from dying. the hook was already sunk, no need for any more charades. palps was baiting anakin to attack mace, but anakin was already turned. his choice was already made to join sidious, thus the scene of him staring out the window towards padme's apartment. he was making a choice and the choice was made.
its only been proven that those with a close bond (family) are able to comunicate in such a way. the only 2 to have an actual conversation was luke and vader at the end of ep5. or else, why would vader need to contact palps via hologram?
no no no. yoda was not bocking, as you can clearly see if you see frame by frame. yoda was hit square in the chest, whereas mace saw it coming and deflected. palps gave him all he had. notice how when yoda was on guard, he took everything palps had to throw at him, and absorbed/deflected the lightning.
palps was pleading to anakin to attack mace, yes. and the force lightning bought him time, since mace cant deflect and attack at the same time. but there is no way he purposely had mace reflect the lightning back at him. why would he need to reveal his true form? (i agree with the 'true form' theory btw).
dude, WHERE THE HELL DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT *ahem* sorry....where did you get the idea that anakin loved palps? that is 100% pure rubish.
from the moment anakin learned that palps was the sith lord he wanted to kill him. its more obvious than the nose on your face, you HAVE to see it.
"are you going to kill me?"
"i would very much like to"
"i know you would....i can FEEL your anger"
there is ZERO love and ZERO trust. really, let that idea go.
from the moment anakin turns to vader, you can see the shame in his eyes for becoming a slave to someone he hates. its all to save padme at first, and in the end his plan is to kill palps and take power. but ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE is it implied that anakin trusts palps in ANY WAY from the moment he learns the truth. he just wants to use palps. the whole time HE is being used, but there is no notion of friendship, and palps calling vader "my friend" is just as sincere as him calling yoda "my little green friend". vader knows this. he's evil, but he is in no way stupid.
there is no love or trust in the sith. dump that idea because its horeshit.
"A lightsaber cannot block Sidious' lightning. Only Yoda's green holy hell can do that. Remember how Sidious' shocks it out of his hand. It is made of metal. Metal conducts electricity. Get a strong enough shock to the hilt and it will hurt like hell. And Palpatine still managed to hold Mace at bay. He was never fully defeated. Anakin was there and he had to lower his defenses and take a risk that Anakin would save him. Also, if the lightning hurt Palpatine, why would he keep letting himself be shocked by it? It was a convenient excuse for his true form to use in the senate also."
"He wanted to reveal his true form because it took effort to hide it and he was a lazy son of a *****. He wanted Vader to do all the work for him. If Anakin was to become a sith, why would he want to hide his apearance from a fellow sith?"
dude, thats all 100% nonesense. palpatine had no reason to reveal himself as deformed. it only made him seem more evil and unfamiliar to anakin. im sorry, but that is all wrong.
(I had edited some of my post above and added some stuff before you posted this.)
Originally posted by PVS
dude, WHERE THE HELL DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT *ahem* sorry....where did you get the idea that anakin loved palps? that is 100% pure rubish.from the moment anakin learned that palps was the sith lord he wanted to kill him. its more obvious than the nose on your face, you HAVE to see it.
"are you going to kill me?"
"i would very much like to"
"i know you would....i can FEEL your anger"there is ZERO love and ZERO trust. really, let that idea go.
from the moment anakin turns to vader, you can see the shame in his eyes for becoming a slave to someone he hates. its all to save padme at first, and in the end his plan is to kill palps and take power. but ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE is it implied that anakin trusts palps in ANY WAY from the moment he learns the truth. he just wants to use palps. the whole time HE is being used, but there is no notion of friendship, and palps calling vader "my friend" is just as sincere as him calling yoda "my little green friend". vader knows this. he's evil, but he is in no way stupid.
there is no love or trust in the sith. dump that idea because its horeshit.
Actually you're right about that. You'll have to forget me if I become a little idiotic after posting about something that has been argued to death on both sides for what seems like an eternity now.
I forgot that line about Anakin wanting to kill Palps. He was pissed at Sidious and wanted to betray him later after he learned the power. I think it was always a hate love relationship though. The way I should have put it is that they HAD a close bond before Palpatine revealed that he was a Sith lord. There is no reason for the connection that had been made to disappear. Instead of it being one of false friendship, it would be one of anger and hatred built on the rotting carcass of an old bond of friendship.
dude, thats all 100% nonesense. palpatine had no reason to reveal himself as deformed. it only made him seem more evil and unfamiliar to anakin. im sorry, but that is all wrong.
Reason 1: He needed some evidence for the senate...
Reason 2: He was lazy
Reason 3: He was evil and wanted to appear like his true self
Reason 4: This was the Sith's coming out party!!!
Reason 5: He needed Anakin to stop viewing him as Palpatine but as his evil master.
Reason 6: If he appeared deformed, Anakin might have some sympathy towards him.
Reason 7: It explained away his true self in a way that was less foreign to Anakin by letting it appear to be a disfigurement.
etc.
Anyway... 🤪 This is giving me a headache. In reality, a lot of this is circumstantial, conincidental, and opinionated. It has been debated to death... and there are a lot of assumptions made on both sides. The truth of the matter is that GL wanted it to be confusing and controvertial to give fanboys something to waste their hours away with. That evil SOB!! 😠
well, as far as palps "unmasking" and whether or not it was intentionally dropped or forced away is up for infinite debate.
but the idea that anakin has so much as a shred of admiration or respect for palpatine is so wrong. vader only wants palps killed and palps only wants vader replaced (after the mech suit). thats all there is to it. there is no friendship at all so drop that idea entirely. anakin THOUGHT he had a friend before he learned the truth, but after that there was nothing.
Originally posted by PVS
well, as far as palps "unmasking" and whether or not it was intentionally dropped or forced away is up for infinite debate.but the idea that anakin has so much as a shred of admiration or respect for palpatine is so wrong. vader only wants palps killed and palps only wants vader replaced (after the mech suit). thats all there is to it. there is no friendship at all so drop that idea entirely. anakin THOUGHT he had a friend before he learned the truth, but after that there was nothing.
Let it go. I said I agree with you on that point. 😉
💃 Can't we all just get along?!! 😆
I did think of one other point I would like to add about the telepathic conversation. We had WAY too many ideas on this being talked about at once. So let's simplify it if there is anymore discussion.
Vader and Luke were not close either. Vader had just chopped Luke's hand off. Luke had sympathy for Vader, but had only had minimal contact with him. They were still enemies, whether they were father and son or not. Obi-Wan talked to Luke telepathically also. Just remembered that. No one else heard Obi-Wan say... RUN Luke RUN! 😆 So it wasn't just genetics linking people telepathically. I hope that made sense. 🙄 When we get too many ideas floating around at once it makes it harder to discuss.
This was the most recent "Was Palpatine faking" similar thread for me to bump and share this little "set diary" tidbit posted at the OS today:
Was Palpatine Faking?
It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord?
George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be.
This entire sequence changed significantly during postproduction. What we witnessed in Sydney told a different story. Anakin did not earn Mace's trust by ratting out Sidious right away. He did not agonize over his decisions while sitting alone in the Jedi Council chamber. He did not rush in at the last minute to witness a questionable balance of power. Instead, he stayed at Palpatine's side, in the Chancellor's private office, as Mace and his posse of Jedi barged in.
"Stand behind me," ordered Mace, in Sam Jackson's demanding tones. But Anakin didn't budge. Instead, he watched passively as Palpatine used the Force to snatch Anakin's lightsaber from his belt and attacks Mace and the Jedi. There's ample evidence of this original version for those with sharp eyes and behind-the-scenes photos. Heck, even Hasbro action figures with Palpatine packaged with Anakin's lightsaber got out there in the initial shipments.
So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do."
When word of the change came down, the keepers of continuities started carefully tracking the evolving consequences. Palpatine had two lightsabers, then, since he loses this one in the duel with Mace. I still have in my inbox a tentative email from one of the authors asking, "um, have we figured out yet whose lightsaber Palpatine uses in the fight with the Jedi?"
At first, it was feared it was impossible to CG the small svelte-handled weapon over Anakin's relatively chunky handle, but nonetheless, that was the lightsaber given to McDiarmid for the pickup photography. The shots of Palpatine rising from his chair and extending the weapon were reshot. The bulk of the duel between Sidious and Mace stayed from principal photography, except for a new touch -- a kick to Palpatine's face, done with stunt double Michael Byrne. This was shot on a partial set of just a piece of window-frame on Friday, August 27.
So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?
What else changed in this scene? There are a few more interesting details, particularly where it moved in the sequencing of the story. But that will have to wait for another entry.