reflexive speed... superman phases through attacks by basically vibrating through the sucker... goku is shown to phase through gynu force attacks as well... the difference being that when superman does it.. he's moving fast yes.. but we still see the after image effect regardless of his speed.... when goku does it however.. he does it so fast that he appears not to have moved at all... by comparison goku's feet for speed in this sense is more impressive.. and we have to consider that when goku performs this feat he is not only at his lowest form... but at one of his lowest end power levels throughout the show...
fight speed- in spite of creshocks inability to accept goku for what he really is.. goku's I.T. is actually incredibly fast movement rather than teleportation.. true.. it may be so fast that it might as well be teleportation.. but goku himself has defined the capability as MOVING at XXXX times the speed of light.. I would think goku to understand his own powers and how they work better than cresh on this one... in any case either way a teleporting opponent or not I.T. would be a tremendous obstical to overcome..
even then... as i said before.. DBZ characters fight so fast that they literally dissapear to the human eye when they kick it into high gear... something I have yet to see superman do...
strength... dbz fighters are peak level humanoid who have condidtioned their body to literally train for months on end under a gravity 400 times that of earth.. even at low estimate this puts DBZ characters well over the 100 ton mark in the lifting category... mid estimates rage into about 160 tons plus... in other words it's enough to toe to toe with supes...
destructive capabilities.. frieza in his 4th stage, fought for a while using only 1% of his power.. frieza leveled up to that stage from several previous stages before that.. in his lowest form, form 1 he destroyed a planet with the tip of his finger... in other words, he literally destroyed a planet with less than 1% of his power... to say that he then attacked goku with less than that during their fight is absurd.. thus goku can take that amount of destructive power in a fight..
these feats and demonstrations at the very least (and I do mean least) put these guys on par or even slightly above that of wonder woman level.. and we know that wonder woman gives superman fits...
what many are failing to recognize is simple.. dbz fighters can control the level of devistation they cause.. they can concentrate planet destroying power into a small blast and keep it from blowing up the planet..
hell even vegeta was totally secure that he had enough power to blow up the earth with his galet gun.. judging from his experience, and goku's reaction to his claim (as goku can feel the power eminating from him) i have to assume that vegeta at a 16,000 PL had more than enough power to level the earth...and that's such a ridiculously low powerlevel by the time the buu saga came about that it's not even funny..
now I see a lot of claims to hyperbole whenever a decent dbz feat is brought up.. yet people think it's reasonable to assume that superman's going to outspeed goku in a h2h fight even though he consistently gets hit by the likes of darksied and orion.. both (to my knowledge) are not noted for their superb speed in h2h. And yet all of superman's feats should be considered valid while the dbz characters are subject to hyperbole claims evertime they do something impressive? I simply don't follow that logic...
cresh earlier you said i was "stooping" to a certain level by bring up accounts that make superman look worse than he really is presented.. well you're doing exactly the same thing to the dbz guys.... at the end of dragonball goku caused an enormous explosion that was times the size of maijin vegeta's self destruct. you seem to be ignoring the fact that dbz characters have a tremendous level of control in what they destroy... or perhaps... are you seriously arguing that goku had more destrucitve power at that point than majin vegeta? either you are or you are not in a sense here.. if not, then you have to come to grips with the fact that dbz characters can infact use all their power in an attack while at the same time choose to limit the overall desctruction of said attack by focusing it on the target alone...
finally I keep reading over and over how dbz characters can't survive the power of a planet buster period.. yet freeza in a badly SEVERELY damaged and wounded state, battle worn and helpless, surived the explosion of planet namek just fine... yet this is ignored while:
the cell saga explosion keeps being referred to over and over again... but there's simply no rationale for the judgment being made on the situation... goku (as I already said.. and as was already ignored) was in a very weakened state by the time cell blew up king kai's planet, infact goku was so battle worn and fatigued that he proved to be even less battle effective than yamcha... the same yamcha who was pretty much completely battle effective against android 20 who was ridiulously pathetic compared to 18 who was extremely weaker than 16 who was completely helpless compared to imperfect cell...
when cell blew.. he used all his power at his disposal... goku didn't die from simply a planet buster... rather a planet buster from a character who (at the moment) had a greater power level than himself.... (and in accordance to the dbz formula) since cell had a larger power level goku was pretty much assured not to be able to stand up to it... (it's how dbz is and always has been.. essentially man with bigger stick win fight type of ideal.. the only exception to the rule was kid bu who outlasted his opponents...) in other words goku got wasted due to the power level of the explosion rather than the fact that it was a planet buster...it's really not a solid feat to make the basis of the argument that goku can't take a planet busting shot at all...
okay that's all the arguments I feel like making right now....
reflexive speed... superman phases through attacks by basically vibrating through the sucker... goku is shown to phase through gynu force attacks as well... the difference being that when superman does it.. he's moving fast yes.. but we still see the after image effect regardless of his speed.... when goku does it however.. he does it so fast that he appears not to have moved at all... by comparison goku's feet for speed in this sense is more impressive.. and we have to consider that when goku performs this feat he is not only at his lowest form... but at one of his lowest end power levels throughout the show...
So let me get this straight... Because in the comic panel Superman is still blurry and visible (Even though its explicit that he's moving faster than photons, which are beyond sight) and Goku in the anime where everyone has four attacks looks as though he's not moved (Despite the difference in the media, no less.) Goku must be faster than Superman? This is ridiculous.
fight speed- in spite of creshocks inability to accept goku for what he really is.. goku's I.T. is actually incredibly fast movement rather than teleportation.. true.. it may be so fast that it might as well be teleportation.. but goku himself has defined the capability as MOVING at XXXX times the speed of light.. I would think goku to understand his own powers and how they work better than cresh on this one... in any case either way a teleporting opponent or not I.T. would be a tremendous obstical to overcome..
A tremendous obstacle to overcome, eh? Any proof of Supes being totally outclassed by teleporters? IT -is- teleportation. Teleportion appears instantaneous. Whether or not it is, is pretty much pointless to get in to. This is one part of the debate. Now, since IT already requires for Goku to mentally lock on to a signal and then move to that place, how is this gonna help him in this battle? Or is this just another "OMfg Gokuu can teleprt he pwnsz!!!" deal? You need to build an -entire- cohesive argument on how Goku can win, not just get on a tangent about his speed. I don't see any reason why Goku could even harm Superman after he teleported. Certainly couldn't kill him.
even then... as i said before.. DBZ characters fight so fast that they literally dissapear to the human eye when they kick it into high gear... something I have yet to see superman do...
Well, it's kinda against comic dynamics to have a character "disappear" in his fighting animations, no matter how fast he moves. There are still panels of Supes dragging Wonderwoman into the Sun and yet they are -presented- as being still enough for us to see. This is for the benefit of the comic viewer, just as the "effect" of Goku and Krillin etc disappearing as they fight is for the benefit of the viewer. This isn't showing that Goku is faster because he -appears- faster. Really, is this what you've stooped to arguing? I can still see the Flash. Is he slower than Goku too?
strength... dbz fighters are peak level humanoid who have condidtioned their body to literally train for months on end under a gravity 400 times that of earth.. even at low estimate this puts DBZ characters well over the 100 ton mark in the lifting category... mid estimates rage into about 160 tons plus... in other words it's enough to toe to toe with supes...
Blackhole > 400x gravity.
They call it a blackhole because not even -light- can escape. Does this help clear up things for you? He escaped -two- of them.
destructive capabilities.. frieza in his 4th stage, fought for a while using only 1% of his power.. frieza leveled up to that stage from several previous stages before that.. in his lowest form, form 1 he destroyed a planet with the tip of his finger... in other words, he literally destroyed a planet with less than 1% of his power... to say that he then attacked goku with less than that during their fight is absurd.. thus goku can take that amount of destructive power in a fight..
It's not the "tip of his finger".... it's a focused cutting beam. Please... get it straight. Freeza did not run up and touch the planet and it blew apart. And Freeza's max power was between 500,000 and 750,000... One per cent of that would be 5000. So... can Yamcha blow up planets too? Or could it be the effect of Freeza's focused cutting beam hitting the planet's core and tearing right through it.
these feats and demonstrations at the very least (and I do mean least) put these guys on par or even slightly above that of wonder woman level.. and we know that wonder woman gives superman fits...
Really? Supes dragged Wonderwoman into the sun pretty easily. If supes gets a grip on Goku, it's unlikely he would break free before being dragged into space.
what many are failing to recognize is simple.. dbz fighters can control the level of devistation they cause.. they can concentrate planet destroying power into a small blast and keep it from blowing up the planet..
You're also failing to see the obvious; Supes oftentimes holds back. Post-crises Supes made the conscious choice to follow good, and because of that he often defers to authority, holds back, and tries to minimize his destruction as best he can. I mean, he intervened Doomsday's march to Metropolis to minimize the chaos because he knew he would have to go all out for the fight. And Doomsday is one mean ass opponent.
hell even vegeta was totally secure that he had enough power to blow up the earth with his galet gun.. judging from his experience, and goku's reaction to his claim (as goku can feel the power eminating from him) i have to assume that vegeta at a 16,000 PL had more than enough power to level the earth...and that's such a ridiculously low powerlevel by the time the buu saga came about that it's not even funny..
Really? Then why when he goes all out abd blows up on Buu, there is still stuff existing? This is -leagues- beyond Vegeta at 16,000.
now I see a lot of claims to hyperbole whenever a decent dbz feat is brought up.. yet people think it's reasonable to assume that superman's going to outspeed goku in a h2h fight even though he consistently gets hit by the likes of darksied and orion.. both (to my knowledge) are not noted for their superb speed in h2h. And yet all of superman's feats should be considered valid while the dbz characters are subject to hyperbole claims evertime they do something impressive? I simply don't follow that logic...
Actually, Darkseid is stronger, faster, and more powerful than Superman. The only reason Superman survived the fight is because Darkseid's main attack (Which obliterates what it touches) won't work on someone that is important to the grand scheme of the universe, which included Superman. Otherwise, Darkseid could beat the tar out of Supes. Other people who have been claimed to tag Supes had the help of Krptonite (Lex, Metallos, Batman, etc.)
cresh earlier you said i was "stooping" to a certain level by bring up accounts that make superman look worse than he really is presented.. well you're doing exactly the same thing to the dbz guys.... at the end of dragonball goku caused an enormous explosion that was times the size of maijin vegeta's self destruct. you seem to be ignoring the fact that dbz characters have a tremendous level of control in what they destroy... or perhaps... are you seriously arguing that goku had more destrucitve power at that point than majin vegeta? either you are or you are not in a sense here.. if not, then you have to come to grips with the fact that dbz characters can infact use all their power in an attack while at the same time choose to limit the overall desctruction of said attack by focusing it on the target alone...
Cresh can handle this point. It's not mine to make.
finally I keep reading over and over how dbz characters can't survive the power of a planet buster period.. yet freeza in a badly SEVERELY damaged and wounded state, battle worn and helpless, surived the explosion of planet namek just fine... yet this is ignored while:
Freeza is also from another race than the Saiyins, I might add. And other DBZ fighters who aren't Freeza have shown vulnerability to far less, and indeed can't survive the vacuum of space. Supes can drag the mighty Wonderwoman to the sun in under two minutes... A fraction of that could drag Goku into space and kill him. How is Goku gonna get out of that? IT? Then what? Shoot beams at Supes from earth while Supes pushes the planet into the sun? PLease...
And I'm at my limit. The rest can wait.
Superman if he can catch goku drags him into space...how will go survive....find out next time on dragon ball z....on the next time on dragon ball z....goku uses instand transmission to go back to earth...foolish superman.(no he don't need to fingers on his head because he did it while doing a kamehameha)
All this just to avoid posting actual evidence to support your side?
You guys can whine and ***** about whatever you want, but you still haven't anted up like a man.
I poseted the scenes that I'm familiar with, not in an attempt to discredit DBZ, but to show what premise I'm running off of. Now you can make all these claims as to what a Characters is capable of, but until you actually provide something concrete, it's all just blind faith and hearsay.
I love how when you guys can't bring Goku up to The level we've presented Superman at you have to resrot to trying to lower Superman down.
Proves that Goku really doesn't have what it takes. Unless, and I've said this quite often,
PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF YOUR CLAIMS, NO HYPERBOLE OR HEARSAY, ACTUAL EVIDENCE OF THE CHARACTER DOING WHAT YOU CLAIM HE CAN
If you can't do that then how do you expect anyone who's not a fanboy tochoose in favor of the side without proof, over the favor of the side WITH proof?
Originally posted by TwisterGameXYou inability to comprehend them.
It's not hyperbole thats what the **** is wrong with your statements.
During the Buu saga, none of the Z fighters EVER displayed that level of power that you keep cliaming they do. YUnless you'd like to show me where they destroyed planets.
Cause what you guys claim is that with a minor portion of their power they colud blow up a planet.
But I've seen one where a guy uses all of his energy, and doesn't blow up a planet, and another where a character uses a kamehameha that strikes the earth and ALSO fails to blow up the planet.
Originally posted by Creshosk
You inability to comprehend them.During the Buu saga, none of the Z fighters EVER displayed that level of power that you keep cliaming they do. YUnless you'd like to show me where they destroyed planets.
Cause what you guys claim is that with a minor portion of their power they colud blow up a planet.
But I've seen one where a guy uses all of his energy, and doesn't blow up a planet, and another where a character uses a kamehameha that strikes the earth and ALSO fails to blow up the planet.
To make the story go along, unless you want me to bring up superman getting hurt by electricty when he was at full power. Wasn't that there to make the story go along so why does it not work for dbz. Freiza blew up planet vegeta rather easy in 4th form and a finger and it is logical since goku now way beyond freizas strength could do it to...no...?
Originally posted by TwisterGameXNo, actually any statment about high powerlevels without proof to back them up is Hyperbole.
To make the story go along, unless you want me to bring up superman getting hurt by electricty when he was at full power. Wasn't that there to make the story go along so why does it not work for dbz. Freiza blew up planet vegeta rather easy in 4th form and a finger and it is logical since goku now way beyond freizas strength could do it to...no...?
WE're not just saying "Superman's become so strong he can survive black holes!" We ****ing showed you the pictures where he did it.
You on the other hand have said "They've become so strong they destroy galaxies"
And we have NOTHING to support this claim. Nothing. At all. Whatsoever.
Well other than hyperbole and hearsay. Neither of which are admissible as evidence.
Originally posted by TwisterGameXYes yes it would be.
Wiat are you the guy that doesn't read superman comics ?Don't be a smartass either. Hyperbole is if superman lift up a truck and I described it as superman could lift up the universe in one hand!!!
Now apply that to Goku. Or vegeta.
"Vegeta can destroy a planet with a minor portion ogf his power!"
And then we see him fail to destroy a planet when he expends all of his energy.
Thus Hyperbole.
But as I said we're not just saying Supes could survive a double black hole, we actually showed he could.
Originally posted by Creshosk
No, actually any statment about high powerlevels without proof to back them up is Hyperbole.WE're not just saying "Superman's become so strong he can survive black holes!" We ****ing showed you the pictures where he did it.
You on the other hand have said "They've become so strong they destroy galaxies"
And we have NOTHING to support this claim. Nothing. At all. Whatsoever.
Well other than hyperbole and hearsay. Neither of which are admissible as evidence.
no....you show a picture of superman holding a black hole with batman in the room and you so happy he did it, but you don't care about him getting hurt by electristy and I am sure you seen it before, so what does the picture tell you, only use things that show superman to be a god right.
Show me where superman fights some one and mountains explode and the planet shakes ?
Show me that superman could take a kamehameha fullpower where it's meant to kill you/blow everything up. Show me superman could handle that, and don't go avioding it with another question.
According to you raddiz is as strong as ssj3 goku.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes yes it would be.Now apply that to Goku. Or vegeta.
"Vegeta can destroy a planet with a minor portion ogf his power!"
And then we see him fail to destroy a planet when he expends all of his energy.
Thus Hyperbole.
But as I said we're not just saying Supes could survive a double black hole, we actually showed he could.
Was it meant to detroy the plabet...no it was concentrated....