The only real difference between them is that Nate was engineered by Sinister to not have self imposed limits on his power. Most high end energy wielders naturally place an upper limit on their power a limit which if breached risks them burning themselves out (Joseph at the conclusion of the Magneto War) Sinister created Nate without this limit because he wanted Nate to have the sheer power to completely annihilate Apocalypse but he also wanted to increase the probability of Nates powers bringing about his own demise. In which event Sinister would have no opposition and could have free reign over the AOA planet. Cable has these limits in place although at the end if his title, in Soldier X and in Cable and Deadpool we got a glimpse of Cable pushing past these limits and displaying Nate level power. The difference between them is very similar to the differences between Magneto and Joseph.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The only real difference between them is that Nate was engineered by Sinister to not have self imposed limits on his power. Most high end energy wielders naturally place an upper limit on their power a limit which if breached risks them burning themselves out (Joseph at the conclusion of the Magneto War) Sinister created Nate without this limit because he wanted Nate to have the sheer power to completely annihilate Apocalypse but he also wanted to increase the probability of Nates powers bringing about his own demise. In which event Sinister would have no opposition and could have free reign over the AOA planet. Cable has these limits in place although at the end if his title, in Soldier X and in Cable and Deadpool we got a glimpse of Cable pushing past these limits and displaying Nate level power. The difference between them is very similar to the differences between Magneto and Joseph.
For the most part, yes. Though the only limits ever mentioned for Cable's powers were the fact he was infected, by Apocalypse, with the techno-organic virus. Remember. It was constantly diverting the vast majority of his powers. So in all truth that means Nathan was a much more stable product while Nate Grey was, as you said, genetically made to reach his peak at an early age and merely burn out.
here's why they're not identical. nate was born in a lab, patched together by sinister to hold ONLY the best and strongest traits of his two "parents," making him an ultimate weapon. cable, on the other hand, was birthed naturally through the womb of madelyne pryor. he was conceived like any regular baby, his chromosomes switched and matched as randomly as any child's would, and despite loeb's writing, they're not identical. the concept of them being "identical" is what writers depended on when comparing the two, but they're not. not only do the probabilities that they'd be perfectly genetically identical make mine a very hard case to argue against, but the fact that sinister continued genetic manipulations on a post-natal nate (as seen in x-man -1,) make it impossible. it's a great theory, and the idea that they were and are identical's been accepted by most everyone who doesn't have any reason to question otherwise, but they're just NOT.
I've never considered Cable and Nate to be twins (or clones for that matter)....for many of the reasons Disappear mentioned....I've just always considered them to be brothers (whether they're full or half brothers is another issue)....It is a good topic for debate though, and it's so interesting to read other's opinions on it
the idea that nate and cable are "extra-dimensional counterparts" is only substantiated by the fact that a) they've got mostly the same genetics in 'em, and b) people wanted to play off that angle. it's still impossible, and it's still contradictory to parts of both of their origins, but it's what people wanted, so they changed all hell to make it so.
it's the same comic premise that bends what's written and what's considered "history" for the sake of a story. for example, in the HoM, gambit was a petty thief in New York, of all places. from what little we've seen on him, and from what we know of the "new" history of the HoM, it's very safe to say that gambit and the courier never went back in time, thus creating a wrinkle in the past by granting sinister all the powers of the courier, and justifying the origin of powers he's displayed through the years. that is sinister's CANON origin for his "complete cellular control" power. so, logically, in an altered universe where that never happened and sinister lives quietly on a farm in the middle of nowhere, HE SHOULDN'T HAVE THOSE POWERS. but, because either nicieza didn't look far enough into it, or because they just wanted sinister to have those powers for a throwaway line to distinguish HoM essex from 616 essex, he still does.
in the end, it's a loophole. it's something from outside the spectrum of the comics itself, primarily the writer's and editor's desires, influences how the stories progress. it goes against history and logic, but because they say it is so, it's so. i, personally, find that to be bullshit, and pretty much argue against all occurences of such. hence, my argument here...
phew...
Originally posted by Disappear
here's why they're not identical. nate was born in a lab, patched together by sinister to hold ONLY the best and strongest traits of his two "parents," making him an ultimate weapon. cable, on the other hand, was birthed naturally through the womb of madelyne pryor. he was conceived like any regular baby, his chromosomes switched and matched as randomly as any child's would, and despite loeb's writing, they're not identical.[/i]
And here's why they are identical, genetically. #1. Jeph Loeb and Steve Skroce created X-Man ( loosely based on Cable ) and therefore nullify any theories, concepts or notions we might develop about Nate Grey. Marvel writers have stood by the ideology that Nathan Summers and Nate Grey are virtually the SAME person save for their cicumstances of existance. It was suppose to inforce the idea of " Nuture versus Nature " which I think it suceeded in. First and foremost this is a comic book...anything can occur. Logically Batman should not be able to pull off the feats he has and should be long dead, logically gamma radiation should have KILLED Bruce Banner and not turned him into the Hulk. So despite your attempt to apply logic to a comic book, they are genetically identical.
the concept of them being "identical" is what writers depended on when comparing the two, but they're not. not only do the probabilities that they'd be perfectly genetically identical make mine a very hard case to argue against, but the fact that sinister continued genetic manipulations on a post-natal nate (as seen in x-man -1,) make it impossible. it's a great theory, and the idea that they were and are identical's been accepted by most everyone who doesn't have any reason to question otherwise, but they're just NOT.
It's a comic book. The impossible is MADE possible. It's fantasy, fiction, [i]make-believe. If the writers wanted to make Apocalypse the REAL genetic father of Cyclops and Gambit, guess what? It would be true in continuity until it was retconned. Are you following me? The concept of them being genetically identical has been PUSHED since X-Man died. It has not been retconned and is therefore Marvel lore.
Originally posted by Disappear
the idea that nate and cable are "extra-dimensional counterparts" is only substantiated by the fact that a) they've got mostly the same genetics in 'em, and b) people wanted to play off that angle. it's still impossible, and it's still contradictory to parts of both of their origins, but it's what people wanted, so they changed all hell to make it so.it's the same comic premise that bends what's written and what's considered "history" for the sake of a story. for example, in the HoM, gambit was a petty thief in New York, of all places. from what little we've seen on him, and from what we know of the "new" history of the HoM, it's very safe to say that gambit and the courier never went back in time, thus creating a wrinkle in the past by granting sinister all the powers of the courier, and justifying the origin of powers he's displayed through the years. that is sinister's CANON origin for his "complete cellular control" power. so, logically, in an altered universe where that never happened and sinister lives quietly on a farm in the middle of nowhere, HE SHOULDN'T HAVE THOSE POWERS. but, because either nicieza didn't look far enough into it, or because they just wanted sinister to have those powers for a throwaway line to distinguish HoM essex from 616 essex, he still does.
in the end, it's a loophole. it's something from outside the spectrum of the comics itself, primarily the writer's and editor's desires, influences how the stories progress. it goes against history and logic, but because they say it is so, it's so. i, personally, find that to be bullshit, and pretty much argue against all occurences of such. hence, my argument here...
phew...
I think you're delving a bit deeper than what the comic book writers truly intended. Again, your concepts are interesting but they're going much further than what writers think about when developing a character. Stan Lee never thought of extra-dimensional loop holes and genetic impossibilities when writing fantasy. That defeats the purpose of creative writing as well as fiction. Try accepting what a writer intends at face value before pushing for some hidden meaning behind their concepts. Otherwise you'll be arguing with logic where it's not really required. You're an excellent debater, it's been a pleasure.
They're not identical, Cable was later slanted to be as powerful as X-Man as to make the more abundant fans of Cable satisfied. The main idea of X-Man was to be a more powerful version of cable, or else he would not have existed. He was meant to burn out only as a fail safe if Nate turned on sinister - not because he was meant to kill Apoc and die. The main reason for his creation was to distroy Apoc but the burn-out had nothing to do with that mission.
Obviously Nate did not burn out and the death of him was a much higher, truer cause he fulfilled. sacrificing himself for the continued existence of the world. If he was to avoid such encounter and continue his life becoming better and better at handling the tunes of such immence, raw psionic power - he would surely be more powerful than cable without a shadow of a doubt. at the same time i do not take cables experience credit away - in a fight it could go either way.
However, they are not identical as it is impossible as Dissapear stated. also if one has total use of power since birth as X-Man did, he will always be more powerful due to the Experience he would have had at it, just as cables experience in combat is a justification of his superiority in fighting.
The killing of Nate was a shot fired at Marvel's own limb, as a Cable and X-Man would have much more readers/publicity than deadpool.
Side Note :: Anyone have scans of Cable Deadpool #19? not just the cover
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The only real difference between them is that Nate was engineered by Sinister to not have self imposed limits on his power. Most high end energy wielders naturally place an upper limit on their power a limit which if breached risks them burning themselves out (Joseph at the conclusion of the Magneto War) Sinister created Nate without this limit because he wanted Nate to have the sheer power to completely annihilate Apocalypse but he also wanted to increase the probability of Nates powers bringing about his own demise. In which event Sinister would have no opposition and could have free reign over the AOA planet. Cable has these limits in place although at the end if his title, in Soldier X and in Cable and Deadpool we got a glimpse of Cable pushing past these limits and displaying Nate level power. The difference between them is very similar to the differences between Magneto and Joseph.
i agree.
Originally posted by nathan summers
Writer Jeph Loeb creator of the character X-Man stated in Cable vol.1, No. 31 May, 1996 " His name is Nate Grey. Torn from a timeline that has since been erased -- He is [b]GENETICALLY IDENTICAL to Cable in EVERY WAY... Including MUTANT POWER. "It continues...
" But there is ONE striking and disturbing difference. Since infancy, Cable has struggled with a techno-organic virus which DIVERTS his power, as he must use it to hold his ravaged body together. Nate Grey knows no such limits and, like a cancer, his own power is slowly ending what precious life he has left."
End quote.
They're not brothers or twin brothers. According to Marvel X-Man is suppose to be the AOA equivalent to Cable. Just like AOA Magneto is 616 Magneto forged under a different set of circumstances. Are AOA Magneto and 616 Magneto brothers? Of course not. They the same person just forged under different circumstances lest we forget that AOA was merely the 616 Universe set off course and then returned to normal.
You were saying? 😉 [/B]
um. if the writer says they are identical when it comes to their genetics who are we to argue? the guy has proof here and even an issue number and volume number. lol.
the whole concept of nature versus nurture, brought up repeatedly, is exactly the founding principle behind what makes them different. cable was born from the womb, conceived like a typical child, and subjected to NO genetic augmentations as a child. he is imperfect. to say that AoA sinister strived to artificially create the ultimate weapon against apocalypse and wound up making a genetic copy of cable is very much a stretch, particularly when "retcons" were made about nate's origin after his creation. however, considering that was written by someone besides loeb, he got to say what he wanted and ignore what's been written, much akin to how claremont shits on continuity to write his crapfest stories. it comes down, essentially, to whether you buy what's said or whether you compare what's said to what is established.
and the whole AoA magneto versus 616 magneto's a moot point, considering both were born long before apocalypse made his presence known. cable and x-man are really the only comparisons worth looking into, considering nathan was born after the time when the timelines converged, and the births in both cases was spurred on by outside forces