nate and cable summers

Originally posted by Disappear
the whole concept of nature versus nurture, brought up repeatedly, is exactly the founding principle behind what makes them different. cable was born from the womb, conceived like a typical child, and subjected to NO genetic augmentations as a child. he is imperfect. to say that AoA sinister strived to artificially create the ultimate weapon against apocalypse and wound up making a genetic copy of cable is very much a stretch, particularly when "retcons" were made about nate's origin after his creation. however, considering that was written by someone besides loeb, he got to say what he wanted and ignore what's been written, much akin to how claremont shits on continuity to write his crapfest stories. it comes down, essentially, to whether you buy what's said or whether you compare what's said to what is established.

and the whole AoA magneto versus 616 magneto's a moot point, considering both were born long before apocalypse made his presence known. cable and x-man are really the only comparisons worth looking into, considering nathan was born after the time when the timelines converged, and the births in both cases was spurred on by outside forces

Nice.

The point highlighted becomes why was nate grey created with effort inclined to changing genetic structure to produce perfection - with an outcome [x-man] equal to an untampered cable?

I dont think so.

To add, Cable was born a regular birth.

To say he was born with the best set of genes to produce the most powerful outcome - is a serious gamble on nature. none of us are the BEST of what our parents DNA contains, because its a random choice of nature or God.

X-Man however was tampered to HAVE the best gene outcome for power that cyclops and jean's DNA can produce.

Therefore he is the roof when it comes to mutant power in the entire summers family.

The argument is that cable was born with also the same roof potential? is a joke and an insult to Biology. no one born a normal birth is ever the BEST their parents can bestow - mutant power included. they may have one or two good traits but also and always have bad traits.

Originally posted by HarmoNiC FLo
To add, Cable was born a regular birth.

To say he was born with the best set of genes to produce the most powerful outcome - is a serious gamble on nature. none of us are the BEST of what our parents DNA contains, because its a random choice of nature or God.

X-Man however was tampered to HAVE the best gene outcome for power that cyclops and jean's DNA can produce.

Therefore he is the roof when it comes to mutant power in the entire summers family.

The argument is that cable was born with also the same roof potential? is a joke and an insult to Biology. [b]no one born a normal birth is ever the BEST their parents can bestow - mutant power included. they may have one or two good traits but also and always have bad traits. [/B]

Cable was not born a regular birth. His appearence in this world was orchestrated and planned by Mister Sinister since the day Essex came up with his plan for the ultimate Summers child. ( Sinister states this in Cable vol.1 No. 8 ) The outcome was by no means a GAMBLE on nature since Sinister created Madelyne Pryor and designed her to seek out Scott Summers to be come impregnanted with child. Furthermore, Sinister does nothing by chance nor does he merely leave things up to " nature ". ( X-Factor #38 )

You apparently don't know your comics very well. Mr. Sinister studied Scott and Jean for years and determined that the combination of their genetics as well as their offspring would produce a PERFECT mutant and Ultimate Weapon. No where did he say that it was a possibility or probability. Mr. Sinister is an expert geneticist who has existed for well over 150 years. I think he knows what he's talking about, eh? Yes, Nathan was born from a natural womb, unlike X-Man but his genetic combinations are the perfect meldings which Sinister made sure were the EXACT combinations. Not only that he tinkered with them when he kidnapped baby Nathan Christopher to make sure of that. ( Uncanny X-Men #239 )

Nathan Christopher was so powerful he, just like X-Man in X-Man minus 1, was able to demonstrate his superior powers at the age of a mere child. Only Nathan Christopher was much younger. Please. Read these examples so you can better understand. The fact is gentlemen, while yes, the circumstances under which X-Man and Cable were born vary SOMEWHAT..they each still have the same genetic templates which means they have the exact same genetic material. Nate Grey was merely a younger more unstable version of what Nathan Summers is.

http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=64&page=2

Scroll down to the part where it talks about the introduction of Nate Grey in the 616 Universe. It makes mention to Cable issues #30-31. It states and I QUOTE;

Shortly after returning to the present day, Cable was informed by Blaquesmith that a second psi-signature, identical to his own, had become active on Earth. Fearing the return of Stryfe, Cable tracked down his double and, for the first time, met Nate Grey, his counterpart from the Age of Apocalypse who had escaped its destruction through the intervention of the M'Kraan Crystal. The resulting three-way battle between Cable, X-Man, and the passing Exodus left the Nates at a stalemate with each other. [Cable (2nd series) #30-31]

*Actually what happened in issue #31 was Cable forced X-Man to burn out his powers, beat him, then put his mind BACK together. FYI.

If you ignore that proof then you're just an idiot X-Man fanboy.

http://uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=64&page=5

i actually dislike x-man quite a bit, so i guess your theory up there's gone "kaput."

also, when cable was but a baby, he manifested a telekinetic bubble around himself to protect from being stomped to death. when nate, who was kept in a mental stasis while his body was grown and manipulated, was let out, he did some crazy astral projection/teleportation gig that sinister couldn't even make sense of for a while. it's clear that baby x-man was of a higher caliber than baby cable.

and again, you're ignoring biology and just saying 'sinister knew what he was doing.' considering how much children from the same parents can vary, and on top of that how much children from scott and jean have varied, there's NOTHING to say that any child of jean and scott would always be a perfect weapon against apocalypse. take rachel, a certified host for the phoenix force who can still be completely overpowered and dominated against her will (read: ahab, bogan, and even those pesky dinosaurs in the savage land.) would she stand a chance against apocalypse? no. but she could've just as easily popped out of the womb.

genetics is the most complex game of matching you'll ever hear of. chromosomes need to align, traits cross from one tip to the next, genes often combine to a varied end or even subtly mutate. there's no way to say that 'any child of these two mutants will be a perfect weapon against apocalypse.' if there was, sinister wouldn't have messed with x-man's genetic structure. if there was, sinister could've just initiated the same sort of "birth" for x-man when he still had jean in the pens and copious amounts of her genetic material.

those issues of cable were out in '96, not long after x-man was actually created. x-man minus 1 came out in '97, demonstrating (in nate's past) their differences and how sinister manipulated nate to be genetically superior to anyone, which could include a naturally-conceived cable.

cable and nate being the "same" person from different dimensions is something the writers and "creators" whipped up, despite evidence to the contrary being presented all along, and more clear evidence being presented later.

and, by the way, i like cable & deadpool much more than i could see myself liking cable & x-man.

Originally posted by Disappear
i actually dislike x-man quite a bit, so i guess your theory up there's gone "kaput."

If you look at the start of my post I was responding to Harmonic Flo's comments, not yours. So I guess your theory up there's gone kaput.

also, when cable was but a baby, he manifested a telekinetic bubble around himself to protect from being stomped to death. when nate, who was kept in a mental stasis while his body was grown and manipulated, was let out, he did some crazy astral projection/teleportation gig that sinister couldn't even make sense of for a while. it's clear that baby x-man was of a higher caliber than baby cable.

Nate Grey in X-Man Minus One was physically much older than Nathan Christopher when he manifested his powers. He was also excellerated in growth which permitted him to readily access those abilities. Nathan Christopher on the other hand was a mere baby with little
comprehension of the world about him and accessed his skills with just as much inherent instinct without being excellerated in any way. Does that means Nate Grey is stronger than he is? I doubt it. At Nate Grey's age Nathan Christopher had already been infected with the Techno-Organic Virus. ( The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix issue #1-4 )

and again, you're ignoring biology and just saying 'sinister knew what he was doing.' considering how much children from the same parents can vary, and on top of that how much children from scott and jean have varied, there's NOTHING to say that any child of jean and scott would always be a perfect weapon against apocalypse. take rachel, a certified host for the phoenix force who can still be completely overpowered and dominated against her will (read: ahab, bogan, and even those pesky dinosaurs in the savage land.) would she stand a chance against apocalypse? no. but she could've just as easily popped out of the womb.

And again you're ignoring the facts displayed before you that comes directly from the continuity of the comics. Rachel was never said to be an " exact " genetic OR psionic match for Cable while X-Man was and that fact has never been retconned. If it has give me the issue number and I'll be glad to read it and admit I'm wrong, otherwise I stand by the FACTS.

genetics is the most complex game of matching you'll ever hear of. chromosomes need to align, traits cross from one tip to the next, genes often combine to a varied end or even subtly mutate. there's no way to say that 'any child of these two mutants will be a perfect weapon against apocalypse.' if there was, sinister wouldn't have messed with x-man's genetic structure. if there was, sinister could've just initiated the same sort of "birth" for x-man when he still had jean in the pens and copious amounts of her genetic material.

those issues of cable were out in '96, not long after x-man was actually created. x-man minus 1 came out in '97, demonstrating (in nate's past) their differences and how sinister manipulated nate to be genetically superior to anyone, which could include a naturally-conceived cable.

You're missing the point entirely. Even AFTER X-Man minus 1 came out it was stated that Cable and X-Man have the exact same psionic signature and genetic templates. Where? In X-Man #46, Cable #63. " Entitled; Blood Brothers. Stryfe returns and attempts to use X-Man's powers to enhance his own to utter omnipotence. Read through the issues and Stryfe continuosly states the FACT that He, Cable and X-Man all share the EXACT same psionic and genetic signatures.

cable and nate being the "same" person from different dimensions is something the writers and "creators" whipped up, despite evidence to the contrary being presented all along, and more clear evidence being presented later.

and, by the way, i like cable & deadpool much more than i could see myself liking cable & x-man. [/B]

That was the point of X-Man's existance and the Age of Apocalypse in the first place. X-Man was made to be a " What if Cable had been born like this.." Evidence? You haven't presented any evidence whatsoever. You've just babbled on about genetics this and impossibilities that. It's a comic book. You find me an issue number where it states that neither of these characters have the same genetics nor psionic signature and I'll GLADLY admit I'm wrong. But you haven't given me anything. So until then forgive me if I find your argument to be factless and redundant.

first, my argument of rachel was meant to disprove your previously-mentioned statement that sinister knew any combination of jean and scott's DNA would create an ultimate weapon against apocalypse. he may have cloned jean to make madelyne, but that still does not, in any way, assure that a child born of summers and grey DNA would turn out how sinister wished. rachel was my example that sinister leaving scott and maddie to have their child, without directly influencing the genetic sequencing, was, in fact, a "gamble on nature." truly, she's got nothing further to do with the argument, except to further distance any semblance of "fated genetics" that would allow sinister to bake up a baby precisely identical to one born in another dimension.

and, if i'm recalling this correctly, nate was being kept in a form of stasis while sinister was not around, which specifically kept him from accessing his powers. his steps through the omaha orphanage were among some of his very first, and he could have no impressive level of knowledge about the outside world that a baby cable wouldn't know of. my point in comparing their power flares as children was to show that while cable acted instinctively to preserve himself, nate's powers lashed out with no great stimuli present. he was acting, while baby-cable was REacting. nate sees ghosts and astral projects (himself and sinister) naturally, as if nothing was happening. that's largely different than making a telekinetic bubble, a very basic feat.

the fact that it was continually mentioned ignores what was written in x-man -1. sinister speaks about manipulating nate's resistance to cold, about interference frequencies sinister implanted in young nate's brain waves. there are manipulations being made to nate, at the very core of his being, that are not made to cable. things that cable has never experienced or exhibited. this makes them different. cable wasn't born with failsafes too keep his telepathic powers from growing out of control before he could control them. cable still wears jackets. does the issue ever out and out say "x-man is genetically different from cable, his alleged extra-dimensional counterpart"? no, because it's set in the past of the AoA, as if the 616 reality wasn't a factor. does it make every implication that they are in fact different, without words that would just go ignored by loeb? you bet.

saying things that contradict facts from the past happens all the time in comics, particularly with writers more concerned with a flashy story than with reflecting continuity. hell, in the upcoming issue of uncanny, meggan suddenly turns intangible (which is outside of her power range,) and refers to herself as a megamorph, when she's a metamorph. that's because claremont doesn't care what moore or lobdell or any of the writers who've handled meggan in the past say. while some might consider it canon now, that doesn't mean it's any less of a continuity error. same thing applies here.

Nathan, all that typing but you just smoothed away from the bottom line fact that cables genes were untampered leaving him a normal birth - the question was never tampering the scenario to get scott to f'uck madelyne.

Your issue numbers constitute no proof whatsoever but show blind speculation of cable SOMEHOW having full potential genes without sinister messing with them.

It doesn't matter if both parents were great basketball players, the child can merely be average. or suck or just be good - its a game of chance.

For you to believe cable just turned out to have the best genes for mutant power and throw pointless issue numbers backing a pointless perspective is subject to reflection of your own comment about fanboism.

BTW nicely said in that last post, Disappear.

Sinister: “ Look at the magnificent effort I made on your behalf. “
X-Man: “ Is that…me? But I don’t remember any of this -- “
Sinister: “ Of course not. “
Sinister: “ How I labored. For centuries I waited for such a magnificent combination – the Prelate Cyclops with a wondrous telepath named Jean Grey. I waited for the two of them to come together and finally…with a slight touch of growth acceleration…The result was more than I could have imagined. “
X-Man: “ That’s a lie! I was taken from the pens – tortured but I escaped! “
Sinister: “ Really? “
[ X-Man vol. 1 No.4 June 1995. pp. 11. ]
Writer; Jeph Loeb / Pencils; Steven Skroce / Editor in chief; Bob Harras

1.) In this issue, X-Man's first, Sinister only makes reference to a single alteration in his subject. That being that he was accelerated in growth which as you can see is stated as being a SLIGHT change. Sinister in this issue also makes it a point to state that he WAITED for the perfect genetic combination in order to put them together. Apparently Nathan and Nate share that very specific combination that Sinister waited for.

X-Man vol.1 No.14 April 1996
Cable vol.1 No. 29 May 1996
Cable vol.1 No.30 April 1996
Cable vol. 1 No. 31 May 1996

“ Sinister has been secretly diverting precious resources and stolen time to this private laboratory over the long years. This brilliant geneticist has poured the blood, sweat and tears of thousands of “volunteers” - along with the rest of their bodily fluids - into research. Research toward a solution. With time and two final, unwitting contributions
From two very special mutant donors - theoretically resulting in the ultimate genetic coupling of their kind - the solution became a plasm. And then the plasm came alive. A thriving bio-medium like no other ever, stirred and stoked by Sinister himself. Shaped by his hands, taking the form of all his most darling dreams - his grandest, greediest, most glorious ambitions - his hope for tomorrow. “
[ X-Man vol. 1 No. -1 July, 1997. pp.4 & 5. ]
Writer; Terry Kavanagh / Pencils; Roger Cruz / Editor in chief; Bob Harras

1.) No where in the issue did it state that Sinister drastically altered the genetic state of Nathan Grey to a point it was divergent from the original DNA he used from the donors ( Scott & Jean. ) This statement merely implies that he cultivated the tissue he had and pretty much allowed it to develop at an accelerated pace.

X-Man – Potentially the most powerful mutant on Earth, young Nate Grey is what Cable could have been in another time, on another world. Genetically identical to Cable, he posses all the same powers – but without the techno-organic virus to inhibit them.

1.) This statement is from the start of the Cable comic called Blood Brothers which is 2 years after X-Man minus one. It's on the inside cover page when Marvel began using explanation pages to inform a reader of the back story. It's not up for conjecture or debate -- it states facts that have not be retconned as of yet.

Stryfe: “ How ironic we spring from the same genetic fountain. And you seem as divergent from the source material as I am. Some would say I was a clone. But they would be mistaken. I was twisted and sculpted from birth to let loose my hatred – to bring chaos to this pathetic world – and it is a purpose I relish. “
Stryfe: “ You possess immense psi-energies even beyond your comprehension, young one…but not mine. Soon those energies will be completely siphoned from you and channeled into me. “
Stryfe: “ You have that unmistakable psi-signature…you are also a child of Scott Summers. But you are not Cable. Like me, you are a perverse shade of my accursed foe. “
[ Cable vol.1 No. 63 January 1999. pp. 25 Blood Brother part 2 of 3. ]
Writer; Joe Casey / Pencils; Stephen Platt & Andy Smith / Editor in chief; Bob Harras

2.) I think this passage is pretty much self explanatory.

X-Man vol. 1 No. 46 January 1999
X-Man vol.1 No. 47 February 1999

All of the comics I have listed here are before and after X-Man minus one. They all state the same fact since the start of my argument, Cable and X-Man regardless of your own personal theories are genetically identical and have the exact same power levels. Yes, the circumstances of their existances are different and I have never disputed that but the facts are X-Man was made to be a " What if Cable..." essentially.

I think Summers basically hit it on the nose with the 'what if Cable' comment, which is what he is more or less. The X-Man is just Cable from another reality without the TO Virus, a slightly different name, less experience, also Nate Grey was properly tweaked and perfected where Cable was kinda left to chance. Their personalities are quite different as well, Nate Grey is definetely more of a free spirit with no control over his emotions, able to tap into his full power and use it in all sorts of ways, some of which were quite inventive and creative. Also they 'techincally' have different mothers with the same dna. Also might I say the whole Nate Grey Maddy Pryor thing was harsh messed up. But ya bout all I gotta say bout that, course I'm sure most of it has been said, just too tired to read EVERYONE'S posts.

ps If anyone has any good Nate Grey quotes could they lemme kno?