Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav,
for the first time we agree on somthing
tell that to religeous people. what will they say to you? they will ridicule you and treat you like shit. because they cant understand or accept your point of view,because they are brainwashed. another example is me and some others talking about the global conspiracy. we get treated different on here and made fun of. same thing.
expand your mind further. We can accept the prison or we can walk out to freedom
Religion is used for terrorism. Most religions, including Christianity and Islam are ideologies, much like communism, capitalism, functionalism, Fascism etc.
When you mix politics and religion it becomes such ideology, and thus is open to critisism. Tip toeing around it to be politically correct is waste of time.
tip toeing is bad. open mindedness is good.
people play a double-opinion game with regards to this topic.
with scrutiny of islam, its "they are evil bastards! we cant dillute the issue with PC nonesense" and then onto the rebuttal of "all religions have corrupt followers", the answer then switches to "you cant single out *insert other religion here* because thats not fair"
not aimed at you lil b., i know exactly what you mean.
i just see this double standard alot and think it needs addressing.
whats good for the goose is good for the gander, same for religious fanatics.
Originally posted by PVS
tip toeing is bad. open mindedness is good.
people play a double-opinion game with regards to this topic.
with scrutiny of islam, its "they are evil bastards! we cant dillute the issue with PC nonesense" and then onto the rebuttal of "all religions have corrupt followers", the answer then switches to "you cant single out *insert other religion here* because thats not fair"not aimed at you lil b., i know exactly what you mean.
i just see this double standard alot and think it needs addressing.
whats good for the goose is good for the gander, same for religious fanatics.
Indeed.
Then again, generalisation of people is different. I would never say that all Nazis were bad, because I can stake my life on it that not all of them were bad - in Eastern Europe, many Nazies were killed by their own because they dropped their weapons and refused to shoot civilians.
However, much like Islam, Christianity and Judaism, Nazism is something Nazis DO.
Islam is something Muslims do, Christianity is something Christians do, and Judaism is something Jews do - it is not the state of mind - these ideologies are what those people DO.
Thus, it is not the people who are the bad - it is the ideology (Nazism) and Religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc etc etc.) which are corrupt.
Saying that either religion is good, but that people make it bad is short sighted and it lacks much logic.
With or without religion you are going to have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. But for good people to do bad things - for that you need a religion, and or extreame ideology.
Many people look at this from a ''politicaly correct' perspective as opposed to the logical one and looking for the ''bad'' in the wrong place.
i see it more as this:
religious fanatacism doesnt make good people do bad things.
its takes away restraint and gives evil people an excuse to do evil things.
SS: we were only following orders
Terrorists: we were only following the kuran
granted, a kind of fever sweeps over people and twists their minds in an environment of extreme idealism, but i think its not that they were good to begin with, but that in a restrained environment they feel obligated to remain restrained. in america, im sickened to hear an opinion like "we should just nuke all those f***ing arabs", but that opinion is out there and in abundance.
i think to myself "what if it was up to them?" i dont think a good person would suggest this, but yet here they are, living among us. they are neighbors, coworkers, even family. what if the shit hit the fan at home and all restraint went out the window. would they be any better than a terrorist or nazi then? i dont think so. a great literary example would be 'lord of the flies'.
take a racist. on his/her own, in an environment of restraint, i doubt that they would grab a rope and go out for a night of linching. however put them in a large group of people who feel the same hate, and they feed off of eachother.
the mob mentallity grows exponentially because there is no sense of wrongdoing (someone there to say "this is wrong"😉 and no sense of consequence (someone to say "im gonna report you to the authorities"😉.
when all sense of restraint goes out the window, those who are not truly grounded in moral values easily go mad. we see this in war in other nations and we see this in incidents at home. whether it be a group of kids killing a homeless person or a soldier raping a civilian.
unfortunately, it leads to generalisation, because the actions of a few speak far louder than the feelings of remorse from the majority who find such action to be horrible. so in the end, everybody is screwed.
I understand, but I disagree.
From where Im standing, what you are saying is pretty much like saying - ''Nazism is a good thing, but its used as an excuse by Hitler to do bad things''
With which I do not agree, evidently.
Lets take some quotes from the Quran -
008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers
009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
You can read all of the quran translation here -http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
Now lets check out the Bible - here is the site with all the injustices, contradictions etc etc etc - http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html
And this is percisely why I dont agree with you - it is NOT the people, it is the ideology. Ideology is why people kill, religion is why people murder and torture - a fear of a higher power, a command from a higher power, a fear of burning in hell - submission to the higer power - god.
After being in America, i understand the frustration many have with the Christians - but it is not them that are the problem, it is the ideology. Christians are people, just like Muslims are, and the GREAT majority of Christians and Muslims are great people, it is the IDEOLOGY they follow that is presenting the problem.
Muslims believe that Quran is a DIRECT command and word of god, making it all that more valid than the bible (which has been re-written fifteen million times over and over and over again)
Nazis, Communists, Neo-conservatives, religious extreamists follow an ideology.
Political ideology is NO different to that of religion - and just like you get to critique the politics, you should critique the religion.
USA which holds itself on such a high moral ground still uses bible when mentioning the word state (???) and as i said before, once you mix the state and the religion, the religion is no longer a personal, its collective ideology and thus open for critisism.
From where Im standing, what you are saying is pretty much like saying - ''Nazism is a good thing, but its used as an excuse by Hitler to do bad things''With which I do not agree, evidently.
bad interpretation...im not sure how you gathered that
what i mean is simply that in an extreme environment of idealistic fanaticism, and when normal restraints are lifted, this is the result. there are potential nazis and terrorists all around us. the only thing that keeps them from losing it is the restraints of society....a kind of posative brainwashing if you will.
Originally posted by PVS
bad interpretation...im not sure how you gathered that
what i mean is simply that in an extreme environment of idealistic fanaticism, and when normal restraints are lifted, this is the result. there are potential nazis and terrorists all around us. the only thing that keeps them from losing it is the restraints of society....a kind of posative brainwashing if you will.
Oh I agree.
People who are drawn to do things like terrorism and slaughter, racism and discrimination already had those pre-conceptions, and the ideology gave the excuse.
As already stated by PVS and Milla more or less, you've gotta feel sorry for those peacefully following their religion who relentlessly condemn the actions of terrorists. These people are gonna get backlash for any horrific deed committed by their religious alikes.
Sad really. I know a couple of Christians (yeah, just a couple haha) who are great people. When an insane Christian goes bombing someone (Bush for example) in the name of God, they tend to take the standpoint of "Well where are you getting all this? Because I'm sure God doesn't give that kind of order."
I believe Christianity/Catholicism is a ludicrous belief anyway, but if people wanna follow it, fine. As goes with any religion.
As Milla said (and I agree), people mostly already have these ideas of mass genocide or terrorism, they just use the ideology as a plead insanity card. I think everyone has a right to believe what they want. If you believe I should be killed because I live, look or act a certain way, fine. I'll debate it to the death, but fine. It's when those beliefs are acted upon that it becomes trouble.
I'm sure there are loads of people in these terrorist groups or communities that think the same way, yet have never killed a soul.
If you believe westerners should die, but never act on it or influence others to, can't say I have too much of a problem with that. I think of many people I'd enjoy murdering, I'm entitled to. As long as I don't act on it or influence someone to, I'm not doing anything wrong.
It's when beliefs cross over into drastic action, that problems arise.
Clearly.
Apologies if that's all been said, just chipping in.
-AC