Originally posted by SentryDidnt Kyle abosrb a Cosmic Cube in the crossover?
A GL ring can supposedly do anything... Transmute matter, hold up the Spectre who looks to be damn heavy, anything their willpower can achieve... So that means Wonder Woman and Superman who held up the Spectre for a few seconds where Kyle held him up via his constructs...So Wonder Man > Kyle's constructs > Weight of Spectre > Superman/Wonder Woman...
"Held the earth on his shoulders.>> not in real comicbook time he hasn't. that is still speculated about. you'll never see him do it, or been shown definitive proof that he did. it's too great a feat. and that would have been the universe/firmament, not just 'the earth'."
Both the Heavens feat and Earth have something to do with the universe firmament (both being the physical manifestation of primordial beings of it). However im going to disagree with you. He did do it. His labours are cannon and even if you pick the heavens - or- the earth, its always too big of a feat. Whatever of the two Atlas was holding, he held as well.
And the Earth has been show in a flasback and referenced before. At DC too.
"no he didn't. in a book where herc was telling a 'tall tale' he said he grabbed manhattan island by its end"
Well that wasent helding Manhattan either.
"(ww also took a part in dragging the MOON from earth's orbit)"
She had help tho. Still a cool feat.
"yep. a good feat, but hardly staggering"
He did something, i dont recall anyone doing before. Including the Avengers.
"true, but in a fight with mindless hulk it took him and a pack of avengers to finally defeat hulk. none of them could have survived against that hulk alone for very long."
In the second round, yes he was geting even stronger. The pack of Avengers was however without counting with Herc : 2. She Hulk and Wonder Man. The rest wasent doing anything.
First round they stalemated one on one.
"<<Even when he was Mortal, still stood toe-to-toe with Nefarius.>> again true, but these mortal feats don't do much to show his strength."
Well in this case, it didnt showed. Nefarius took the then really depowered Herc punches like they wer nothing. He smiled at them. He tossed him aside. He lasted the whole thing the same way he lasted the whole fight against pro Onslaught Hulk.
With the exception he actually got that Hulk down with his skills, while against Nefarius, not even that.
"true. they've stalemated several times, but herc was also ko'd by a single blast of thor's lightning, and in the early thor v herc (jim125 and thor 126) it was clear that thor was being portrayed as the stronger of the 2. "
Because of Jane Foster? They wer portraited as equals with Thor having the advantage, he was mad after Herc because of her.
Hercules has a win against a mind controlled Thor, after taking Mjolnir shots in the back of his head. The rest wer all stalemates.
"Yeah... but Wonder Woman fights the full Gods, why would she have a huge problem with a half of one? lol"
psst.
Hercules also fought full gods both in myths and comics.
psst.
He even defeated some.
psst.
Hercules has been both a demi god and a full god.
psst.
Because she always had troubles with him.
Just letting you know.
<<He did do it. His labours are cannon and even if you pick the heavens - or- the earth, its always too big of a feat. Whatever of the two Atlas was holding, he held as well.>>
show it happening in the present in any book. not being 'talked about', or recalled, or speculated on. it has never been definitively stated that he has done that deed. and it was the firment, ie HEAVENS/UNIVERSE -- if you stick to the letter of the myth. no way in hell would marvel show herc holding up the universe - or even the earth for that matter. allusions to the deed aside, they never have, and they never will. if dc's shows it happening in a herc or ww book (actually SHOWN it happening in the present, again not recaled or discussed) that's ridiculous too and is certainly the greatest strength feat ever by any character in any company.
<<She Hulk and Wonder Man. The rest wasent doing anything>>
it was ironman and shehulk who actually staggered hulk for the first time in that battle, and the battle had been going on for a long time before that with all the avengers in on it - including hercules who was as ineffectual as the others.
<<Hercules has a win against a mind controlled Thor, after taking Mjolnir shots in the back of his head. The rest wer all stalemates.>>
true enough. but in any thor fight where thor went all out and used his hammer to its fullest rather than sluging it out, thor would win. herc one-dimensionality will always be his downfall against strong foes with more diverse power sets.
"it has never been definitively stated that he has done that deed. and it was the firment, ie HEAVENS/UNIVERSE -- if you stick to the letter of the myth. no way in hell would marvel show herc holding up the universe - or even the earth for that matter."
Examples of labours being cannon. Statements aside that also exist in print.
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/227/picture10667uy.jpg
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3055/picture10672nn.jpg
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/6867/atlastitan19bj.jpg
One nitpick. Uranos its not the universe. Thats Chaos.
"it was ironman and shehulk who actually staggered hulk for the first time in that battle, and the battle had been going on for a long time before that with all the avengers in on it - including hercules who was as ineffectual as the others."
Iron Man in that second round had one shot against the Hulk together with She Hulk. Hercules unlike the rest (and with the exception of those two i mentioned) was the only one -fighting back- and that lasted the whole fight.
And Hulk was mostly innefective. He didnt knocked out anyone. Much less busted the ones in discussion.
"true enough. but in any thor fight where thor went all out and used his hammer to its fullest rather than sluging it out, thor would win. herc one-dimensionality will always be his downfall against strong foes with more diverse power sets."
Agreed. Thor when using the hammer to the fullest can pretty much defeat any high top tier hero or villain.
<<Examples of labours being cannon. Statements aside that also exist in print.>>
lol! i told you you couldn't find any evidence of him doing the deed in the PRESENT. the first 2 scans are AGAIN, being RECALLED by hercules -- AND he's not even shown holding the universe!! i wonder why that is . . .? same goes for the last one. that third scan is yet ANOTHER pic of herc RECALLING the incident -- and laughing at his own pun, hardly a reliable recollection.
you can show as many scans as you want of him 'remembering' the feat. as i said about 10x in the past - IT HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN OCCURRING IN THE PRESENT IN A COMIC BOOK. just because herc is shown recalling it a couple times, does not make it cannon. until they do a book about the 12 labors, and the herc in it is proven to be the same herc as present day marvel AND they show that herc holding up the universe, it will never be cannon.
and i'm not sure, but are you telling ME uranos isn't the universe? where did i say that? and chaos isn't the universe either . . . 😉
"ol! i told you you couldn't find any evidence of him doing the deed in the PRESENT. the first 2 scans are AGAIN, being RECALLED by hercules -- AND he's not even shown holding the universe!! i wonder why that is . . .? "
This has to be a laughable attemp of yours. Call it universe. call it dome of the sky. Call it Earth. Call it all the names the ancients gave. These are after all his classic stories. Not some made up feats. And ones in print as i showed and in continuity. This kind of feat its something he and Atlas did. Even at Wildstorm with majestic it was stated.
And yes Chaos in the greek myths represented the universe itself. The primordial force. the void and emptiness wich Gaea and Eros sprang. Kinda like the Marvel universe getting born and Galactus being the first being to "show up". Pretty original eh?
Lastly. What is that " been showed in present" ? How can you show a deed that was made back centuries ago -in the present- . You can only see them in flasbacks. Wich is ironically what you are talking about. Flasbacks showing what he did. Like the - recent- Mini.
"and laughing at his own pun, hardly a reliable recollection"
Laugthing or rather surprised someone is incredulous by hearing such a feat. Anyone can see its the second.
"you can show as many scans as you want of him 'remembering' the feat. as i said about 10x in the past - IT HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN OCCURRING IN THE PRESENT IN A COMIC BOOK."
😆
"just because herc is shown recalling it a couple times, does not make it cannon. until they do a book about the 12 labors, and the herc in it is proven to be the same herc as present day marvel AND they show that herc holding up the universe, it will never be cannon. "
If you dont hear it from the mouth of who did, then who you want to hear from. Maybe from Hulk? I bet you would belive then.
😖hifty:
And now we are making excuses? Now the Herc Marvel showed in flasbacks with the argonauts, figthing Thor in the past, and doing the Labours - isent- the present day Herc? I smell someone desperate.
"and chaos isn't the universe either . . ."
See first post.
Honestly in all Leonidas. it was nice for a laught (actually two). But i did thought you knew about the subject, some more.
Originally posted by jrodslam
True, but maybe Hal nor John thought of containing it. Not like they tried and failed. Kyle gets my props for that one nonetheless.And he was the only one to fight off Parallax during Rebirth. While Guy John and Kilowog got possesed. Possibly even Alan. Much respect again to Kyle for that one.
Kyle is also the one that was able to banish the Angels away. Nobody else was able to do anything to them.
Originally posted by olympian
"ol! i told you you couldn't find any evidence of him doing the deed in the PRESENT. the first 2 scans are AGAIN, being RECALLED by hercules -- AND he's not even shown holding the universe!! i wonder why that is . . .? "This has to be a laughable attemp of yours. Call it universe. call it dome of the sky. Call it Earth. Call it all the names the ancients gave. These are after all his classic stories. Not some made up feats. And ones in print as i showed and in continuity. This kind of feat its something he and Atlas did. Even at Wildstorm with majestic it was stated.
And yes Chaos in the greek myths represented the universe itself. The primordial force. the void and emptiness wich Gaea and Eros sprang. Kinda like the Marvel universe getting born and Galactus being the first being to "show up". Pretty original eh?
Lastly. What is that " been showed in present" ? How can you show a deed that was made back centuries ago -in the present- . You can only see them in flasbacks. Wich is ironically what you are talking about. Flasbacks showing what he did. Like the - recent- Mini.
"and laughing at his own pun, hardly a reliable recollection"
Laugthing or rather surprised someone is incredulous by hearing such a feat. Anyone can see its the second.
"you can show as many scans as you want of him 'remembering' the feat. as i said about 10x in the past - IT HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN OCCURRING IN THE PRESENT IN A COMIC BOOK."
😆
"just because herc is shown recalling it a couple times, does not make it cannon. until they do a book about the 12 labors, and the herc in it is proven to be the same herc as present day marvel AND they show that herc holding up the universe, it will never be cannon. "
If you dont hear it from the mouth of who did, then who you want to hear from. Maybe from Hulk? I bet you would belive then.
😖hifty:
And now we are making excuses? Now the Herc Marvel showed in flasbacks with the argonauts, figthing Thor in the past, and doing the Labours - isent- the present day Herc? I smell someone desperate.
"and chaos isn't the universe either . . ."
See first post.
Honestly in all Leonidas. it was nice for a laught (actually two). But i did thought you knew about the subject, some more.
what the hell are you talking about? and why are you on this thing about the universe? i truly have no clue. you won't believe it, but i'm currently writing a novel BASED on the early greek myths centering on the birth of zeus. trust me when i say i know a little about the subject. but i've got no idea why you're even going on about it. laughable? wtf??
on the topic . . .
something is cannon when it is SHOWN ACTUALLY OCCURRING in a comic book. very simple. IT HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN HAPPENING!! why you can't get that through your head, i have no idea. what is TRULY laughable (bordering on ridiculous) is this belief that just because herc recalls it in a book, that it is cannon. not only that, but in the first 2 scans he waasn't even SHOWN doing it there!! great work showing support for your case!
and it's funny how he can hold the earth/whateverthehellyouwouldprefertonameit yet when working with vision shehulk and beta ray bill he could hardly push over the gate to muspelheim! that thing should have felt like a piece of papaer to world toting herc!! THAT makes loads of sense . . .
if he can 'hold the world' why doesn't he have more feats similar? why isn't he acknowledged as the strongest hero in all of comics? that would make his strength class, what, cl3x10tothe 21st power!! oh yeah, CLEARLY he demonstrates THAT type of strength regularly. seriously, you MUST be kidding to go on about this.
when they do a ltd series about his labors, and he is shown in that book (you see, that's how easy it would be to actually show the feat in the PRESENT tense of a book . . . ❌ ) to hold the earth, THEN it will be canon. plain and simple and uncontestable.
<<If you dont hear it from the mouth of who did, then who you want to hear from. Maybe from Hulk? I bet you would belive then.>>
hehe. and before you believe your own arguments to quickly recall how you were also so sure that there was only ONE scale of infinity, and that thor actually walked and talked to atum in the heart of the sun . . .
😉
"what the hell are you talking about? and why are you on this thing about the universe"
Because there are more than one classification for it. The Uranos/Heaven has been described, as a firmment (or one of) of the universe. Others called him the Dome of the Sky. Others the Heavens where the sky god rules over.
In the end doesnt make it less or more possible for Herakles, since whatever the classification you give, he did the labour.
"something is cannon when it is SHOWN ACTUALLY OCCURRING in a comic book. very simple. IT HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN HAPPENING!! why you can't get that through your head, i have no idea"
And thats the funny part. It was showed on a comic. On panel. While stated. Get that over your head.
"is this belief that just because herc recalls it in a book, that it is cannon. not only that, but in the first 2 scans he waasn't even SHOWN doing it there!! great work showing support for your case"
When he - tells- about things he did, and it shows up in a form of flasback while being stated, its cannon. The two pages - again - show all labours in continuity, including the one where he had to retrieve the apples given by Gaea. Again, since you know mythology, you know he had to get passed Atlas. Who again was helding either one manifestation or another.
Since above that, we saw on panel the Earth one, thats the feat Marvel has taken into consideration about Herk until otherwise stated. Wich you havent provided.
In the end it boils down to one simply thing. The labours are there. Showed and stated. If you dont like it, its not my concern.
"if he can 'hold the world' why doesn't he have more feats similar? why isn't he acknowledged as the strongest hero in all of comics? that would make his strength class, what, cl3x10tothe 21st power!! oh yeah, CLEARLY he demonstrates THAT type of strength regularly. seriously, you MUST be kidding to go on about this. "
Again your going overboard. Where did i stated he can pull this all the time. He had to struggle like nothing before (and he already had a continents split feat in the myths).
He achieve it for some time. And suceed at it, everyone seems to aknolowlege this except you. Being bitter because besides Hulk, theres someone with such ridiculous feats?
Now that we are talking, does Hulk shows regularly the strenght he needed to do the matter/antimatter feat before he started to lose it?
Thats right.
About being called the strongest hero in comics, its irrevelant. However since your too sensitive about the subject he has been called that the same way Hulk and Thor have. Even Gilgamesh has been called that.
You must be kidding indeed.
"hehe. and before you believe your own arguments to quickly recall how you were also so sure that there was only ONE scale of infinity, and that thor actually walked and talked to atum in the heart of the sun . . ."
Such a dodge. That has nothing to do what its being discussed here. And Thor did walked and talked with Atum in the heart of the sun. You even posted it.
Now, care to try again? If Hulk made reference/stated about the feat, would you accept it better than someone who - did it - ?
lol!! you crack me up. AND you sound desperate and bitter. urm, and why do you keep bringing up hulk? dontgetit
oh, nice generalization too - 'everyone accepts it but me.' lol! oh yeah, clearly EVERYONE accepts it. look at everyone rushing to support your declaration!notworthy
dodging? sure it has to do with what is being discussed - you're positive you were right then, and you're positive you are right here. why the problem seeing the connection? lol. again.
your tantrum aside, answer 2 questions:
1. has hercules been shown holding the heavens in a comic in the present tense? ie - has a comic book been written where hercules ACTUALLY holds the heavens? not where he 'recalls' doing it, or 'brags' about doing it, but actually DOES it? hmm . . .?
2. can you name one other feat that is considered canon but that has NOT been shown actually HAPPENING (present tense) in a comic book? just one. or, if you'd rather, can you name one other feat that is considered canon based on the fact that a character 'remembers' it, even though the feat never actually happened in a comic book? hmm?
