Originally posted by Echuu
Dark Ages have anything to do with it? Yes. Over that time the church gained more power in peoples lives in a 'religious' sort of way and implemented the anti-homo ways (Even though the church seemed to ignore scriptures on not judging people of the world).
It was easy for the church to do this because of the crappy lives most people lived. The masses would flock to any sort of comfort.
I saw a program on the History channel that suggested the Dark Ages could have been started by a meteor hitting the Earth. If this had happened, it might account for the harsh living conditions. There would have been a world wide food shortage and this my have made the conditions ripe for the Church to gain power. Interesting though, but I really don't know. After all, I are talking about unwritten history.
What?! No no no. That is very silly. I think the biggest cause of the dark ages was the fall of Rome. Barbarians ruled after its fall. They had no idea how to manage any buildings in Rome, though they admired them, and they fell into ruin.
The same can be said about various other thing; much knowledge was lost(hence the term DARK ages) , there was no central power to look to for support, you had tons and tons of filthy peasants living in crammed cities that were once beautiful under Roman control, and in general just a total mish mash of confusion from all these factors rolled into one.
Then the churched moved in which filled the void of something great to look to, something central. Previous to that they all looked to and admired the Caesers, generals, and maybe some of the various gods in the pantheons. The church spread the word about Christ; someone to save everyone from their miserable lives.
Originally posted by Echuu
What?! No no no. That is very silly. I think the biggest cause of the dark ages was the fall of Rome. Barbarians ruled after its fall. They had no idea how to manage any buildings in Rome, though they admired them, and they fell into ruin.
The same can be said about various other thing; much knowledge was lost(hence the term DARK ages) , there was no central power to look to for support, you had tons and tons of filthy peasants living in crammed cities that were once beautiful under Roman control, and in general just a total mish mash of confusion from all these factors rolled into one.Then the churched moved in which filled the void of something great to look to, something central. Previous to that they all looked to and admired the Caesers, generals, and maybe some of the various gods in the pantheons. The church spread the word about Christ; someone to save everyone from their miserable lives.
Well the History Channel show, showed evidence in the history recorded by the Chinese, but you would have to see the show.
Re: Ancient Homosexuality
Originally posted by silver_tears
What happened through the ages?I mean if you think about it, homosexuality or bisexuality was greatly accepted early on in history....ancient Greece, and Rome for example....
So what changed that?
Wouldn't it be safe to assume that in that time and age, even one of the apostles could have been gay stemming from the lack of females around them and such?
Why do you think now something is so taboo, when once it was so widely accepted?
http://www.unites.uqam.ca/dsexo/Revue/Vol2no1/03_Olivier~1.html (Read especially from SEXE,RÉPRESSION ET AMITIÉ ENTRE LES HOMMES )
"One must first reject the idea that homosexuality was tolerated in ancient Greece, and that with Christianism came intolerance. (...) It is an anachronism to talk about homosexuality in ancient Greece: we just use a (relatively) contemporary designation to describe a certain amount of past sexual practices (...)
The American historian John Boswell (1980) show that what we call Christian morality - monogamy, interdicts on sexuality, etc. - was existing long before the Christian era (...)"
This article is really interesting, a bit difficult though... So if you really want to think about that topic, I can help you translate it.
PS: "MICHEL FOUCAULT: PROBLEMATIC
FOR A HISTORY OF HOMOSEXUALITY
ABSTRACT
The history of homosexuality has primarily focused on two aspects: the process of repression/liberation and the problematic of the historical development of homosexuality. By emphasizing the oppression experienced by the gay community and by studying homosexuality as part of a larger history of sexuality, both approaches have neglected significant elements of the specific history of homosexuality. Michel Foucault’s work on homosexuality enables us to rethink the way this history has been presented by demonstrating that repression has not been the mechanism through which "perverse" sexuality has been controlled in western societies. The French philosopher also suggests, even though his discussion is no more than a hint at the need for further research, that the concept of friendship emerging in the West during the 17th and 18th centuries may prove to be an auspicious avenue to explore when seeking a fuller history of homosexuality. Lastly, Foucault opens new perspectives on political practices. In contrast with the politics of liberation, he suggests putting liberty at the center of one’s sexuality (homosexuality), an alternative that seeks to create new social relationships, a new culture."
Originally posted by Echuu
What?! No no no. That is very silly. I think the biggest cause of the dark ages was the fall of Rome. Barbarians ruled after its fall. They had no idea how to manage any buildings in Rome, though they admired them, and they fell into ruin.
The same can be said about various other thing; much knowledge was lost(hence the term DARK ages) , there was no central power to look to for support, you had tons and tons of filthy peasants living in crammed cities that were once beautiful under Roman control, and in general just a total mish mash of confusion from all these factors rolled into one.Then the churched moved in which filled the void of something great to look to, something central. Previous to that they all looked to and admired the Caesers, generals, and maybe some of the various gods in the pantheons. The church spread the word about Christ; someone to save everyone from their miserable lives.
The cause of the dark ages? you make it sound like it's a decease.
The first thing you'll learn in history is that there is no "Greek time" or "roman time" or "medieval time", we humans need it to see structure in it, but if you take any basic Medieval course, you'll see that after the fall of Rome which was just a continuity of what already was happening, those "barbarians" took (almost) all from them with some minor adaption like the law: the buildings, the roads, the trade, the symbols of power, ... To say they had no idea how to manage any buildings is wrong, they did but due to reorganization and an early pre-feudal system (which could already be placed in the Roman time), they needed an other way of governing since there was not anymore one big empire in Europe that ruled a big part of the continent. That is NOT that they didn't knew how to keep it up, there was no need or less need to.
Much knowledge was lost?? The very first class of Medieval I got at the university started with the professor saying:
"Never claim that these times were dark, that's an "invention" of the Renaissance where they wanted to express their love for ancient Rome and how close they wanted to resemble it."
They got that name and never could shake it off. Yes, it was a time of war and sickness, but are any other times the same? Which time had no war or deceases?
There are many inventions that find their roots in these "dark" ages, the only problem is: they never got finished. That took place in the early modern times and in some cases in the modern time, and THOSE got the name of being the "better" while they were just the expansion of what already happened before.
To go and look into the commoners and their living in the city... I can look up the numbers if you wish, but there were at times certainly five or six times more "barbarians" and slaves than there were Romans in their own capital! Not to mention how this would be at the borderline of their empire or in smaller cities were these people could find a job.
How you suddenly pull the church in, makes it sound as if all of a sudden in 476 the church sweeps through Europe, converting everyone.
Though "already" in 315 when the emperor (forgot his name at the moment) announced that "all religions should be allowed so that all the gods/... that are there in heaven will get worshipped so they are pleased and will bring good to our people." Clearly before what humans have decided is the end of the Roman time. And that's when it got allowed, they already had worked in Rome under the ground.
Originally posted by yerssot
[...] in 315 when the emperor (forgot his name at the moment) announced that "all religions should be allowed so that all the gods/... that are there in heaven will get worshipped so they are pleased and will bring good to our people."[...]
😑
how the hell did 315 end up there?? you're right on both points, it's indeed Constantine the great (of the west) and it's indeed 313, I apolegise.
to be specific I was refering to the Edict of Milan which states (I had to look up the "official" English version):
"whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule."
and if I'm not mistaken Theodosius I (379-395) required that all of his subjects be christian...
EDIT: It's 313 and NOT 315 as I wrote yet again
Originally posted by silver_tears
What happened through the ages?I mean if you think about it, homosexuality or bisexuality was greatly accepted early on in history....ancient Greece, and Rome for example....
So what changed that?
Wouldn't it be safe to assume that in that time and age, even one of the apostles could have been gay stemming from the lack of females around them and such?
Why do you think now something is so taboo, when once it was so widely accepted?*In no way am I being sacreligious here or whatever, I was just using that as an example.
But remember, where bible says that homosexuality is a sin is not where Jesus was preaching.
The part where homosexuality is condemned is the book sacred to Jews, later taken by Christians - the old testament, no?
I do believe that Jesus was representative af all margenised people. I also belie he spend his life in India teaching with Hindus and Buddhists. And I believe that in the end he god missunderstood about what he was saying.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But remember, where bible says that homosexuality is a sin is not where Jesus was preaching.The part where homosexuality is condemned is the book sacred to Jews, later taken by Christians - the old testament, no?
I do believe that Jesus was representative af all margenised people. I also belie he spend his life in India teaching with Hindus and Buddhists. And I believe that in the end he god missunderstood about what he was saying.
It is nice to find someone who (on this issue) thinks like I do.
Go girl, go...
Just as a historical note, the Dark Ages only really occurred in Britain. The term comes from a lack of historical sources meaning that we have no idea what went on at that time, hence 'Dark'. And Britain was the only place where that really happened- mainland Europe is known well enough from that time to Medieval times.
People have started to use the term 'Dark Ages' for the whole of Europe from the fall of Rome to the age of Castles but that is highly inaccurate.
Originally posted by yerssot
that is a VERY uneducated, unrefined and in some perspective blatantly wrong point you give here.The cause of the dark ages? you make it sound like it's a decease.
The first thing you'll learn in history is that there is no "Greek time" or "roman time" or "medieval time", we humans need it to see structure in it, but if you take any basic Medieval course, you'll see that after the fall of Rome which was just a continuity of what already was happening, those "barbarians" took (almost) all from them with some minor adaption like the law: the buildings, the roads, the trade, the symbols of power, ... To say they had no idea how to manage any buildings is wrong, they did but due to reorganization and an early pre-feudal system (which could already be placed in the Roman time), they needed an other way of governing since there was not anymore one big empire in Europe that ruled a big part of the continent. That is NOT that they didn't knew how to keep it up, there was no need or less need to.Much knowledge was lost?? The very first class of Medieval I got at the university started with the professor saying:
"Never claim that these times were dark, that's an "invention" of the Renaissance where they wanted to express their love for ancient Rome and how close they wanted to resemble it."
They got that name and never could shake it off. Yes, it was a time of war and sickness, but are any other times the same? Which time had no war or deceases?
There are many inventions that find their roots in these "dark" ages, the only problem is: they never got finished. That took place in the early modern times and in some cases in the modern time, and THOSE got the name of being the "better" while they were just the expansion of what already happened before.To go and look into the commoners and their living in the city... I can look up the numbers if you wish, but there were at times certainly five or six times more "barbarians" and slaves than there were Romans in their own capital! Not to mention how this would be at the borderline of their empire or in smaller cities were these people could find a job.
How you suddenly pull the church in, makes it sound as if all of a sudden in 476 the church sweeps through Europe, converting everyone.
Though "already" in 315 when the emperor (forgot his name at the moment) announced that "all religions should be allowed so that all the gods/... that are there in heaven will get worshipped so they are pleased and will bring good to our people." Clearly before what humans have decided is the end of the Roman time. And that's when it got allowed, they already had worked in Rome under the ground.
Then my history course was crap 😂
You still leave some unanswered questions though.
What inventions are you talking about?
Barbarians accepting the Roman ways is not universal; tribes differed in that respect.
Yes, the pre-feudal system has been thought to possibly have started in Rome.
"To go and look into the commoners and their living in the city... I can look up the numbers if you wish, but there were at times certainly five or six times more "barbarians" and slaves than there were Romans in their own capital! Not to mention how this would be at the borderline of their empire or in smaller cities were these people could find a job."
EXACTLY- then you add a little plague and famine here and there and you have massive amounts of death.
"The first thing you'll learn in history is that there is no 'Greek time' or 'roman time; or "medieval time",
"Clearly before what humans have decided is the end of the Roman time."
Don't these two kind of contradict each other?
Also; no the church didn't sweep through Europe like that. But I still think the people looked up to the church in that regard of something to hang onto in the dark ages.(and maybe because there coffers were overflowing)