If God were to tell you to, would you fly an airplane into a building?

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Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not say this lightly, and I have to be pressured to come to it; but if there was no other recourse other then taking a life, and the sacrifice of my own life will not aid some greater good, then I would do what I have to do to survive. However, I would not hate the person and show respect for the life that had to be lost.

I agree that one should hate the sin - but love the sinner. Our major point of disagreement is with what we each believe "the greater good" to be. It seems highly unlikely that one could sacrifice their life for a greater good -- when following a philosophy that defines good as being relative to self interpretation. To me it would seem that the primary purpose of a sacrifice based on such a philosophy, would be for the benefit of oneself and not for the benefit of others.

I don't believe that any act is truly loving - regardless of how outwardly good it may seem, if it strictly involves the exaltation/benefit of oneself.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not take on their Karma as long as the endeavor is a just one. However, I do take on the karma of my position, and if I were to die because of it, then I would have no hate for the person who took my life.

An individual is just as responsable for taking a life as the person who took it, if they knowingly engage in assisting someone take that life. Training troops, becoming a medic, and other similar tasks are all forms of assisting the army in killing someone. If you were caught by the enemy, you'd be considered just as much of a war criminal as any other soldier.

That being stated, there is nothing that really separates either of us from those men who willingly flew their planes into the buildings, other than the method in which we use to assist our government(or God) in defeating what it has deemed to be its enemy.

However, I will say that if one's sole motivation is to truly assist a "greater Good" and not to exalt themselves, then I don't believe they ever really need to worry about whether or not the God they're following is an evil one.

All this being said, it's quite apparent that the men who ran their planes into a buildings were not in it to exalt their God or help others, they were in it to exalt themselves and receive a reward(i.e. 1000 wives, treasures, what not).

However these men are not alone with such extremist rationale, many of those defending "freedom" in the United States subscribe to the similar extremist philosophies, particularly those who exclaim to be defending "freedom", while at the same time knowingly and willingly taking away the freedoms of others - particularly those who are least capable of defending themselves.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Still, the path that they are on is what is evil. If a person is evil, then how could they ever be forgiven?

The path is evil, and when the person continues to follow a path knowing it is evil they become evil as well. The bible tells us that a person is forgiven from following an evil path when they completely turn away from it both physically and spiritually, and when God decides to enact his mercy upon the individual who repented. It also teaches that knowing of evil and indefinitely showing extreme tolerance of and compassion for it --- is evil as well.

Originally posted by Thundar
An individual is just as responsable for taking a life as the person who took it, if they knowingly engage in assisting someone take that life. Training troops, becoming a medic, and other similar tasks are all forms of assisting the army in killing someone. If you were caught by the enemy, you'd be considered just as much of a war criminal as any other soldier.

You need to brush up on your Geneva Convention. A civilian who helps his nations military during war is not considered to be a war crime.

Originally posted by Thundar
The path is evil, and when the person continues to follow a path knowing it is evil they become evil as well. The bible tells us that a person is forgiven from following an evil path when they completely turn away from it both physically and spiritually, and when God decides to enact his mercy upon the individual who repented. It also teaches that knowing of evil and indefinitely showing extreme tolerance of and compassion for it --- is evil as well.

I do not go as far as you do. I say the path is evil, because I do not know the heart of the person. Even in your own religion, you do not have a right to judge the heart of a man, only his actions.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A civilian who helps his nations military during war is not considered to be a war crime.

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Originally posted by Alliance
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If the cause is right, as I stated before...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You need to brush up on your Geneva Convention. A civilian who helps his nations military during war is not considered to be a war crime.

I don't know of any nations that have civilians training their troops, or that have civilians acting as medics to troops on the field. Those tasks are specifically assigned to military officers.

That being said, the Geneva Convention and any similar "rules of engagement" really mean nothing during times of war. They sound good on paper, but when faced with a life or death situation - your friend becomes one who is helping to assist you and your people in battle, not the one who is assisting the enemy and his.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I do not go as far as you do. I say the path is evil, because I do not know the heart of the person. Even in your own religion, you do not have a right to judge the heart of a man, only his actions.

Knowing that one is following an evil path and continuing to travel down it means that one has given their heart over to evil. This is not passing a condemning judgement on anyone, this is using common sense. So if a person willingly and "knowingly" follows a path they know to be evil, then they themselves have become evil in action as well as within their hearts.

This rationale can be applied to anyone willingly assisting another commit an evil action - despite whether or not they're directly assisting them in commiting the evil, seeing as how they've willingly commited themselves to assisting this evil cause.

All this being stated, there are indeed definite limits to what "assisting" can mean of course, which I believe are primarily based on the level of control one has over the situation they're confronted with.

Originally posted by Thundar
I don't know of any nations that have civilians training their troops, or that have civilians acting as medics to troops on the field. Those tasks are specifically assigned to military officers.

That being said, the Geneva Convention and any similar "rules of engagement" really mean nothing during times of war. They sound good on paper, but when faced with a life or death situation - your friend becomes one who is helping to assist you and your people in battle, not the one who is assisting the enemy and his.

Knowing that one is following an evil path and continuing to travel down it means that one has given their heart over to evil. This is not passing a condemning judgement on anyone, this is using common sense. So if a person willingly and "knowingly" follows a path they know to be evil, then they themselves have become evil in action as well as within their hearts.

This rationale can be applied to anyone willingly assisting another commit an evil action - despite whether or not they're directly assisting them in commiting the evil, seeing as how they've willingly commited themselves to assisting this evil cause.

All this being stated, there are indeed definite limits to what "assisting" can mean of course, which I believe are primarily based on the level of control one has over the situation they're confronted with.

I spent 7 years in the army, and if they needed my help, I would help.

Also, I don't know the heart of another person, so I cannot say for sure if someone is evil. You can make that judgment, but remember that you will be judged as you judge (or something like that, I don't remember the verse).

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I spent 7 years in the army, and if they needed my help, I would help.

Loyalty is a good quality, and I definitely respect that aspect of yourself that you've presented. Still, essentially what you've asserted though is that you'd willingly help your "army" in training people run planes into buildings - without in anyway questioning the motives, intentions, or outcomes of such actions.

How does this in anyway, shape or form justify you as being any different than any other religious extremist?

If you don't attempt to question, judge, or discern the intent of their actions, how do you know the "cause" you're engaging in is a good one?

And if you've determined their intent to be "evil" - how can you justify your assistance of them in performing this "evil" to be good?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Also, I don't know the heart of another person, so I cannot say for sure if someone is evil. You can make that judgment, but remember that you will be judged as you judge (or something like that, I don't remember the verse).

If an individual has stated to me that they know what they're doing is wrong, but despite knowing this they state they will continue to do wrong or follow a person who is doing wrong and not attempt to change their behavior, then I would say that I'm making a pretty sound judgement about where there heart is, as well as on their character and motivations.

Being able to judge character and intentions is a good thing, so long as one is not assigning any form of punishment to an individuals actions. This type of discernment assists one in determining who they should and shouldn't be following - if they are truly attempting not to go down a good and not an evil path.

Originally posted by Thundar
Loyalty is a good quality, and I definitely respect that aspect of yourself that you've presented. Still, essentially what you've asserted though is that you'd willingly help your "army" in training people run planes into buildings - without in anyway questioning the motives, intentions, or outcomes of such actions.

How does this in anyway, shape or form justify you as being any different than any other religious extremist?

If you don't attempt to question, judge, or discern the intent of their actions, how do you know the "cause" you're engaging in is a good one?

And if you've determined their intent to be "evil" - how can you justify your assistance of them in performing this "evil" to be good?

If an individual has stated to me that they know what they're doing is wrong, but despite knowing this they state they will continue to do wrong or follow a person who is doing wrong and not attempt to change their behavior, then I would say that I'm making a pretty sound judgement about where there heart is, as well as on their character and motivations.

Being able to judge character and intentions is a good thing, so long as one is not assigning any form of punishment to an individuals actions. This type of discernment assists one in determining who they should and shouldn't be following - if they are truly attempting not to go down a good and not an evil path.

My country is a good country. If I thought the country was wrong I would say so, but I would not run away.

The fact is, you do not know the heart of another person. You say that you do not assign punishment, but what is in your heart will make its self known through your actions. If you make a judgment on a person, you will punish that person without meaning too. What is in your heart manifests its self in your actions.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
My country is a good country. If I thought the country was wrong I would say so, but I would not run away.

But again Shaky, that's the same type of rationale that the Muslim extremists used when running their planes into the WTC. They thought the cause of their "country" and/or "God" was a good one. Don't get me wrong - as I stated before you demonstrating loyalty to your country is a good thing - but it can be detrimental to oneself and others if one never questions the motivations, causes, or actions of those it is they're following, this includes judging the underlying intentions and causes that one has created for themself.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The fact is, you do not know the heart of another person. You say that you do not assign punishment, but what is in your heart will make its self known through your actions. If you make a judgment on a person, you will punish that person without meaning too. What is in your heart manifests its self in your actions.

I think you're misunderstanding. I dont' mean questioning or judging in a negative or condemning light, I mean doing so in a way which will bring about the truth of a situation, which will help others. When one is really seeking this type of truth - and is trying earnestly to use it to help others, they will not need to worry about the importance of their own "cause" - because they will already know that the "cause" that they are following is a good one.

Originally posted by Thundar
But again Shaky, that's the same type of rationale that the Muslim extremists used when running their planes into the WTC. They thought the cause of their "country" and/or "God" was a good one. Don't get me wrong - as I stated before you demonstrating loyalty to your country is a good thing - but it can be detrimental to oneself and others if one never questions the motivations, causes, or actions of those it is they're following, this includes judging the underlying intentions and causes that one has created for themself.

I think you're misunderstanding. I dont' mean questioning or judging in a negative or condemning light, I mean doing so in a way which will bring about the truth of a situation, which will help others. When one is really seeking this type of truth - and is trying earnestly to use it to help others, they will not need to worry about the importance of their own "cause" - because they will already know that the "cause" that they are following is a good one.

I disagree with you! 9-11 was not state sponsored.

I believe that you and I do not have the ability to keep our judgment we made about the person from clouding our world view.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I disagree with you! 9-11 was not state sponsored.

This is wrong on soo many levels. I'll save it for another day and another thread though..😉

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I believe that you and I do not have the ability to keep our judgment we made about the person from clouding our world view.

Judgements and questioning used with loving intentions present clear not "clouded" world views. I sincerely hope that you've learned that it's okay to judge individual intent and action if the right spirit is involved when doing so, and as long as one is not assigning some form of absolute spiritual punishment to an individual.

To be quite honest, I've learned much about the importance of judging myself during this discussion, particularly the importance of determining what my own actions/intents/motivations are upon engaging in such discussions with others.

Originally posted by Thundar
Judgements and questioning used with loving intentions present clear not "clouded" world views. I sincerely hope that you've learned that it's okay to judge individual intent and action if the right spirit is involved when doing so, and as long as one is not assigning some form of absolute spiritual punishment to an individual.

You have no special spirit in you. You are human and you are subject to the way you see reality.

Originally posted by Thundar
To be quite honest, I've learned much about the importance of judging myself during this discussion, particularly the importance of determining what my own actions/intents/motivations are upon engaging in such discussions with others.

Self judgment is what we need to do all the time. We know what is in our heart.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You have no special spirit in you. You are human and you are subject to the way you see reality.

We are all allowed to subjectively interpret things the way we wish. Ultimately though, our subjective interpretations of "reality" will have no bearing on what "reality" imposes upon us.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Self judgment is what we need to do all the time. We know what is in our heart.

Sometimes we do - sometimes we don't, but in the end - the cause that we follow will be the ultimate determining factor regarding what was truly in our hearts.

Originally posted by Thundar
We are all allowed to subjectively interpret things the way we wish. Ultimately though, our subjective interpretations of "reality" will have no bearing on what "reality" imposes upon us.

Sometimes we do - sometimes we don't, but in the end - the cause that we follow will be the ultimate determining factor regarding what was truly in our hearts.

If reality is a subjective interpretation, wouldn't it be better to limit our judgment to things we know for sure? If you do not know a person's heart, you are in no position to judge that person.