I'm curious for some arguments too.
On one side we've got Traya, who we've seen handling 3 lightsabers at once and do the insta-kill trick. Although we don't know how effective that is against the real powerful Force users and we also haven't seen any other extraordinary use of the Force from her. Sion hasn't really shown anything impressive combat wise either except for... not dying. Then there is the Exile who practically won her major battles due to being a wound or good with words. N. is going to be the real problem because he has shown some serious use of the Force. Revan, enough said.
On the other side we have the Chosen One, who has shown to be more than capable in a combat situation. There's Dooku, one of the best duelists and practitioners of the Force ever. The deadliest Sith Apprentice, Maul. And last but not least the most powerful Sith.
Well, and this is just my opinion, but:
Nihilus =/< Sidious
Traya > Tyranus
Sion = Maul (he can hold him off with his unkillability)
DS Exile + Revan =/> Vader (Exile being DS is important imo. This means she's killed and drained 3 jedi masters, 'countless' individuals and possibly done so to Sion and Traya.)
Of course Traya and Nihilus' instantkill abilities might just pwn the everyone but Sidious, but I don't know if anyone can get past Sids if they don't.
I'd put Traya's ability to casually dominate three Jedi Masters with the Force beyond anything we see from anyone on Sidious's team. I think we can place The Jedi Exile on the same level as Traya, considering that she canonically defeated her in a battle Traya herself convincingly states she will not hold back in (plus that was LS Exile, as Nephtys pointed out DS Exile is even more impressive). Sion can hold back and eventually defeat anyone on the opposing team, and Revan based on everything he accomplished seeemd to be an excepional individual, on approximately the same level of Sidious I'd imagine. Nihilus is in an entirely different league to anybody else involved, and Sidious's team also happen to be outnumbered. I don't think it's close; Sidious's team gets manhandled imo.
Three Jedi masters who are known for doing shit all. Impressive, most impressive. As for Revan and the Exile, well, once you take away their blasters, they're useless.
Being a Jedi Master, particularly during wartime, denotes someone as having a certain level of power. As for Revan and The Exile, thats more than the people they fought and killed were able to do.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Three Jedi masters who are known for doing shit all. Impressive, most impressive.
Well they were all High Council Members, Kavar (also the Battle Master) and Vrook were both highly reputed for their capabilities, and Kavar did display effective use of the Force when he stunned an entire crowd of soldiers that were surrounding him. Regardless though they could have been three undefined High Council Members and the likelihood would still be that they would be highly competent at defending themselves against attacks of a form that they actively involve themselves in understanding. Being a Jedi Master is generally indicative of relatively large amounts of training, learning, practise, and experience, having been capable of surviving all of the threats and dangerous situations that a Jedi naturally faces across a vast amount of time, and being of enough merit that they were deemed to progress through every rank all the way to the top position, and as far as they're explored in the EU each trial to the next rank usually involves a test of combat ability as well as such things as good analytical and evaluative judgement. Traya defeated three such beings with the Force. All at once. With no outward display of effort. Whilst situated on a lightside nexus. The likelihood is that, based on that display (and others), she's a highly powerful and dominant Force User.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'd put Traya's ability to casually dominate three Jedi Masters with the Force beyond anything we see from anyone on Sidious's team. I think we can place The Jedi Exile on the same level as Traya, considering that she canonically defeated her in a battle Traya herself convincingly states she will not hold back in (plus that was LS Exile, as Nephtys pointed out DS Exile is even more impressive).
We don't know how those three Jedi Masters compare to the Force Power houses of Sidious' team. Dooku and Vader would be able to defeat practically every Jedi Master in the Golden Age. We've seen Dooku put down Ventress with his finger and Ventress is arguably better than any of those featless unknown Jedi Masters. As for the Exile, if she can withstand Traya's insta-kill (Traya must have used her insta-kill logically as she wasn't holding back) there is all the more proof that every one on Sidious' team would be able to do the same.
Sion can hold back and eventually defeat anyone on the opposing team,
I've been over this multiple times. No, Sion can't defeat anyone just because he can't die. I want to see him without a head first.
and Revan based on everything he accomplished seeemd to be an excepional individual, on approximately the same level of Sidious I'd imagine.
Revan is an unknown. We don't know how he fought in a single worth notable victory. You can't put him on the same level as Sidious because Sidious has been proven to be the most powerful Sith ever without equals. Heck, you can't put Revan on any level because that would always be pure speculation seeing as Revan is an unknown.
Nihilus is in an entirely different league to anybody else involved, and Sidious's team also happen to be outnumbered. I don't think it's close; Sidious's team gets manhandled imo.
If you're talking about the planet drain, do you know how long that even took? Sidious even has feats besides quotes that put him above N.
I don't think it's close either, Traya's team loses, badly.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We don't know how those three Jedi Masters compare to the Force Power houses of Sidious' team.
Sure but the likilihood is that dominating three of them simultaneously on the base of a Jedi Temple with ease places Kreia on a level that the others cannot be said to be.
Dooku and Vader would be able to defeat practically every Jedi Master in the Golden Age.
Golden Age? If you're referring to the PT era you haven't establuished the ease and the numbers they would be able to do it against in such a manner.
We've seen Dooku put down Ventress with his finger and Ventress is arguably better than any of those featless unknown Jedi Masters.
Well firstly we can consider that they weren't in a combat scenario and it's likely that Ventress wouldn't have been actively defending herself against her teacher/master, and I see people highlight the fact that he did it with a finger as something that is indicative of ease of effort when the truth is that it was likely the best motion he could have used for the attack considering it was a precision attack that operated on a very small scale (attacking her blood vessels). The effort, if there was any, would have likely been going on behind the scenes, on concentrating vastly to be able to apply the Force on such a small scale.
As for the Exile, if she can withstand Traya's insta-kill (Traya must have used her insta-kill logically as she wasn't holding back) there is all the more proof that every one on Sidious' team would be able to do the same.
Considering the kind of stuff The Exile accomplishes and the calibre of combatant she's painted to be, I don't think that speaks very positively for people who are in all likelihood weaker then her at all.
I've been over this multiple times. No, Sion can't defeat anyone just because he can't die. I want to see him without a head first.
Well that he seems to convince The Exile that he cannot be killed after several engagements leads me to believe that it's either not so easy or something that cannot be done due to the nature of his ability, given that the Exile was in a position to test it out and would have likely done so before being convinced.
Also regardless of its useful combat aplications I'd still say that the ability speaks for some quality, whether its willpower, control, power etc. that's far in excess of that of anyone in Sidious's team, and is highly supportive of his superiority over any one of them.
Revan is an unknown. We don't know how he fought in a single worth notable victory. You can't put him on the same level as Sidious because Sidious has been proven to be the most powerful Sith ever without equals. Heck, you can't put Revan on any level because that would always be pure speculation seeing as Revan is an unknown.
Unknown's a strong term. He accomplishes a tonne of things in KotOR, and beyond that the game exposits at every turn how powerful and exceptional he is, and we know his knowledge base was incredibly vast. The Dark Lord of the Sith, over tens of thousands of other Force Users. The picture being painted is that he was a highly exceptional figure and most likely the most powerful person in the Galaxy.
Also:
"Sidious has been proven to be the most powerful Sith ever without equals."
You've said this in a few threads now but you haven't once fully established it as being correct. The liklihood, based on his movie potrayal, is that he's not even close to being the most powerful Sith ever, and if inconsistent EU showings were used to 'prove' the claim then the argument automatically loses credibility.
If you're talking about the planet drain, do you know how long that even took?
Well in the comic book Unseen, Unheard, it's indicated to have taken a few hours, but regardless, it could have taken days, and it's still a vastly impressive display of power, far beyond the small scale stuff we see from everyone else in this thread.
Sidious even has feats besides quotes that put him above N.
None that are consistent with his movie potrayal and can be said to be accurate reflections of how powerful he really was.