Yet Another New Torture Device from the Land of the Free!

Originally posted by Fishy
Its really to bad that the US is so damn powerful. a normal country would been attacked and bombed for doing less then what Bush has done in the last few years.

Netherlands, huh? Well just remember that about 8200 good American soldiers lay in your cemeteries in Holland because this "damn powerful nation" using our "damn power" for your freedom. And you were a "normal" country who was attacked for far less than what Bush has done in the last few years, and by a man who was about 100 times as crazy. And he almost succeeded.. Say what you want about America being so powerful, it's your right and I won't deny you that, but just remember that that power you mention also went to help you guys out when you were too weak to defend yourselves.

That's all I ask.

And by the way, you're welcome. Peace brother. 🙂

I don't know if you can use past magnanimity to justify present transgressions.

I think all he meant was that the U.S. is a very powerful nation, the world's only hyperpower, and as such it can defy international law, which it has done in recent times, and yet not incur penalties which would be imposed on weaker nations such as economic, diplomatic or military sanctions.

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Netherlands, huh? Well just remember that about 8200 good American soldiers lay in your cemeteries in Holland because this "damn powerful nation" using our "damn power" for your freedom. And you were a "normal" country who was attacked for far less than what Bush has done in the last few years, and by a man who was about 100 times as crazy. And he almost succeeded.. Say what you want about America being so powerful, it's your right and I won't deny you that, but just remember that that power you mention also went to help you guys out when you were too weak to defend yourselves.

That's all I ask.

And by the way, you're welcome. Peace brother. 🙂

This just in... Americans have the right to microwave people because they fought for freedom in the past. 🙄

Originally posted by dawsey28
This just in... Americans have the right to microwave people because they fought for freedom in the past. 🙄

the logic is amazing isnt it?
since america was one of many nations to make such sacrifices, we somehow have earned the right to torture. we have somehow gained the right to commit evil and simultainiously claim the moral high ground.

when i see fellow americans agree with torture, murder, and genocide and then have the balls to declare themselves patriots, it just sickens me to the pit of my stomach. they claim to stand by the flag when they may as well wipe their asses with it.

One should probably note that the U.S. did not exactly rush to the aid of it's allies purely out of altruism. It joined WWII after being attacked by the Empire of Japan if my memory serves me correctly. The war began more than 2 years prior.

Originally posted by FeceMan
By the way, Link, PVS' threads are almost always anti-United States military and anti-Republican/conservative.

I don't think that is necessarily true, although the fact is there is alot of negative stuff around, justified I believe, about the US conservatives and military, so it's natural people debate them, and I think it's good when you have such questionable things like this.

However, if you wished to balance it out you could start threads about the clearly good stuff the US is doing. I am sure it exists, it's just overshadowed by stuff like this that, as I have said before, is questionable to downright wrong.

But as I said, I don't think it's wrong to put of news about debatable issues going on, nor is it bad that they show a negative view of certain aspects, because to be honest in some ways it is justified. And as I said, you should make some threads about the good stuff then.

Originally posted by PVS
the logic is amazing isnt it?
since america was one of many nations to make such sacrifices, we somehow have earned the right to torture. we have somehow gained the right to commit evil and simultainiously claim the moral high ground.

when i see fellow americans agree with torture, murder, and genocide and then have the balls to declare themselves patriots, it just sickens me to the pit of my stomach. they claim to stand by the flag when they may as well wipe their asses with it.

I completely agree with you and it is the type of arrogance that gives Americans a bad rep.

And the worst part was this:

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Netherlands, huh?

Attacking a post because the poster has Netherlands under his or her name? 😘

Originally posted by Dagons Blade
Netherlands, huh? Well just remember that about 8200 good American soldiers lay in your cemeteries in Holland because this "damn powerful nation" using our "damn power" for your freedom. And you were a "normal" country who was attacked for far less than what Bush has done in the last few years, and by a man who was about 100 times as crazy. And he almost succeeded.. Say what you want about America being so powerful, it's your right and I won't deny you that, but just remember that that power you mention also went to help you guys out when you were too weak to defend yourselves.

That's all I ask.

And by the way, you're welcome. Peace brother. 🙂

Just remember some of your city's if not your entire country would not have existed without the help of other country's like France and the Netherlands. We were the first country to officialy recognzie the US as a country.

Stop saying history is all that important to you americans. The US did not really thank Russia for what they did either, so why should we thank you? Or is it because you are an American?

this forum is full of PC activists

in riots, police use force to disperce the crowd - whether it be riot sheild and truncheon or water cannon or this new beam thing.

all have risks, but all are desgined to be less than lethal - that doesn't mean that people havent been beaten to death or pummelled to death by the water cannon... and it won't mean that people won't get burned.
it's a riot, it's an active display of aggression against the authorities... you think if the rioters get hold of a policeman/soldier they won't beat them within and inch of their life?

the use of the word 'torture' in this thread is ridiculous... torture is active ly restraining and inflicting pain on a person... this is purposefully designed to give the victim time to move away from the beam, if it was a torture device it would be a different story - a taser could be construed as a torture device because it fires barbs into the victim which stop them getting away from the electric bolts

Originally posted by Fishy
Just remember some of your city's if not your entire country would not have existed without the help of other country's like France and the Netherlands. We were the first country to officialy recognzie the US as a country.

Stop saying history is all that important to you americans. The US did not really thank Russia for what they did either, so why should we thank you? Or is it because you are an American?

^this guy is right however, the only reason American won the civil war was because of the help from other European countries like France and the Netherlands..

and as for WW2, the 2 most decisive turning points in the war were the eastern front in winter headed by the russians and the British opening a southern front to the war around greece etc - America, although helpful, weren't the decisive impact on WW2

Originally posted by Df02
this forum is full of PC activists

in riots, police use force to disperce the crowd - whether it be riot sheild and truncheon or water cannon or this new beam thing.

all have risks, but all are desgined to be less than lethal - that doesn't mean that people havent been beaten to death or pummelled to death by the water cannon... and it won't mean that people won't get burned.
it's a riot, it's an active display of aggression against the authorities... you think if the rioters get hold of a policeman/soldier they won't beat them within and inch of their life?

Of course they will, but here's the funny thing then. The police is meant to protect. Of course rioters have to be separated sometimes with extreme force. And yes people die from the other things. But why make a new weapon that is not any more effective and will hurt people faster and harder. And why isn't it going to be used in the US itself? I mean if it isn't lethal, then they should be able to use it right, but of course if it happens to US citizens people will complain.

Originally posted by Fishy
Of course they will, but here's the funny thing then. The police is meant to protect. Of course rioters have to be separated sometimes with extreme force. And yes people die from the other things. But why make a new weapon that is not any more effective and will hurt people faster and harder. And why isn't it going to be used in the US itself? I mean if it isn't lethal, then they should be able to use it right, but of course if it happens to US citizens people will complain.

show me a place in the US with a constant threat of violent rioting and i'll show you the police using more effective anti-riot technology.

90% of the reason for using this weapon is shock... if you run at a police line and suddenly you're in extreme pain, you'll think twice before doing it again... whereas if you run at a line and get hit by water or a truncheon, it's not really the same is it.

The water can hurt like hell. And it might be that its shock but the people that will be hit, will be in extreme pain for a very long time. They will be burned badly. You've read the article seen what they made the testers do. Nobody that riots is going to do that, this weapon is just dangerous.

And who cares if it only happens once or a lot of times, this weapon if its okay to be used and more effective should be used everywhere even in the US.

Originally posted by Fishy
The water can hurt like hell. And it might be that its shock but the people that will be hit, will be in extreme pain for a very long time. They will be burned badly. You've read the article seen what they made the testers do. Nobody that riots is going to do that, this weapon is just dangerous.

And who cares if it only happens once or a lot of times, this weapon if its okay to be used and more effective should be used everywhere even in the US.

yea, water can hurt like hell... but it's designed to knock you offer your feet primarily... it's not a very shocking weapon is it?
a beam of light, putting you in extreme pain for a brief period imo is alot more likely to cause me to run off then any amount of truncheons or water cannons.

it's an extreme weapon, no one is disputing that... 90% of riots in the US wouldn't end with the death of policemen at the hands of rioters if not controlled, i couldn't say the same if iraqi's got hold of policemen, could you?

Originally posted by Df02
yea, water can hurt like hell... but it's designed to knock you offer your feet primarily... it's not a very shocking weapon is it?
a beam of light, putting you in extreme pain for a brief period imo is alot more likely to cause me to run off then any amount of truncheons or water cannons.

it's an extreme weapon, no one is disputing that... 90% of riots in the US wouldn't end with the death of policemen at the hands of rioters if not controlled, i couldn't say the same if iraqi's got hold of policemen, could you?

No, but how does that make it better...

Look the weapon is supposed to make people scared right, its supposed to make people leave, its supposed to save lives and stop problems. Its not supposed to hurt people to badly.

Why is this weapon only used in Iraq? If it does all that it is supposed to do it should be used in the US as well and then it would probably be bought by any other country in the world and used there too. Of course that isn't going to happen so why would we think it isn't a dangerous weapon?

Originally posted by Fishy
No, but how does that make it better...

Look the weapon is supposed to make people scared right, its supposed to make people leave, its supposed to save lives and stop problems. Its not supposed to hurt people to badly.

Why is this weapon only used in Iraq? If it does all that it is supposed to do it should be used in the US as well and then it would probably be bought by any other country in the world and used there too. Of course that isn't going to happen so why would we think it isn't a dangerous weapon?

you're making assumptions.. where does it say it won't be used in the us?

yes the weapon is supposed to make people scared... how else do you propose to scare a rioting mob? put a sheet over your head and shout boo? - it is a weapon, it has to render a mob inable to fight and cause them to disperse, it's just unfeasable to expect a non-painful weapon to do that effectively...

you're living in a sunshine and fairydust world where there's a nonviolent solution to every problem the world throws up - a violent mob cannot be subdued without some force... it's a fact pretty much, that's why police have truncheons and riot sheilds, tear gas and water cannons... all cause pain in varying degrees, and all are effective to varying degrees

Oh I know you have to use things like that, did I ever deny it. And it isn't going to be used in the US because the US will complain to much. If it is ever going to be used there I will take this all back, but it isn't going to be.

And those things that you have just mentioned are less effective in hurting people. And still succesful in keeping a mob away. So whats the problem really? Why develop a new weapon just to hurt people more then necessary?

Originally posted by Fishy
Oh I know you have to use things like that, did I ever deny it. And it isn't going to be used in the US because the US will complain to much. If it is ever going to be used there I will take this all back, but it isn't going to be.

And those things that you have just mentioned are less effective in hurting people. And still succesful in keeping a mob away. So whats the problem really? Why develop a new weapon just to hurt people more then necessary?

why make m16's when the flintlock rifle still killed people?
it is more effective at dispersing crowds obviously... i've already said it's a shock weapon.. if you're hit by it you're going to think twice before putting yourself in the position to be hit by it again arent you?.. same can't be said about watercannon or the others

A water cannon won't burn people either, a water cannon won't destroy peoples eyes either. A water cannon won't kill as much as this either. And a watter cannon is still effective.

Besides do you honestly think this will stop riots? If so you are leaving in a dream world.

Originally posted by Fishy
A water cannon won't burn people either, a water cannon won't destroy peoples eyes either. A water cannon won't kill as much as this either. And a watter cannon is still effective.

Besides do you honestly think this will stop riots? If so you are leaving in a dream world.

didnt say stop, i said disperse... and shock the people involved.
a water cannon also uses up a resource that is less abundant than in the US, it also only takes a tablespoon of water in your lung for you to drown, and a small amount of water pressure in your ear to burst it... also a watercannon isn't all that effective.. you see videos of it being used and the people just get back up... it's pretty much a defensive barrier weapon, used to keep people at a distance while police lines position and brace themselves

in test runs precautions are always taken, they probably asked them to remove contacts for precautionary purposes only...

I doubt it...