Originally posted by Ushgarak
What??!He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away!
Innocent of terrorism he may have been, but they didn't just gun down a bystander for the hell of it.
Originally posted by Red Superfly
He ran. So he got shot. He didn't co-operate with the polices demands.How he thought he'd survive running away from armed police is astonishing.
"It's awful"
"Nice one London for shooting an innocent man"
People who say this are full of crap. He acted like a textbook suspect.
I'd have shot him.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no indication that he didn't speak English, and again, yes, that is the trained means of dealing with suicide bombers. Your continual accusations in this area should be accompanied by some attempt to learn about the situation before commenting.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know much🙂I understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.
Originally posted by snoochyboochies
OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know muchI understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.
I agree with this. As a MET Copper I know what it's like to have your every action scrutinised (this doesn't make my opinion more valid, but I simply know what it's like). The shooter made a decision based on a very fast sequence of events and obviously thought the bloke had a bomb. If the bloke did have a bomb, the shooter would be a hero for saving everyone on the train, but his decision would have still been based on the same sequence of events. It's a fine line. It's a tragic event and the victim is a victim of terrorism as much as any other victim on 07/07 or 09/11.
Calling it sickening and calling one of the finest police forces in the world incompetent is foolish and in ill-taste.
This event quite rightly results in upset, but it needn't result in anger faced at the people who are trying to protect our fine city.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
If you are a Met officer you will know that many SO19 come from the SAS, SBS, PARAs etc and have had to retrain themselves as not to shoot to kill. A shoot to kill policy is in effect for obvious reasons. They killed an innocent man, thats sad.I think it is tragic, and if you read what I said it was that I understood that a shoot to kill policy was in effect, someone who was not a bomber was shot and killed. Eyewitness acounts say he was pushed and held on the ground then shot. A mistake was made so yes I worry about competance. I understand the Police have a hard job, I have met good ones and bad ones.
I would not want a society without Police, but, a mistake challenges competance, and its not the first time the met have shot someone by mistake is it? It won't be the last sadly. They are accountable and if a overeaction has been made, may well be held accountable.
Originally posted by BackFire
They did get it right, they did everything by the book, they made no mistake.A man they thought to be a possible suicide terrorist ran when they told him to halt, they took the necessary actions to bring him down and make sure he wouldn't be able to detonate any bombs that he may have been carrying. They did what they should do in this situation, not take chances.
The only mistake that was made was by the brazzilian man who ran.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
They were out of uniform and we don't know what was said, how correct they acted any enquiry will ascertain that is not for you or I.
I'd say we need that enquiry soon!
If the cops can go arround shooting folk by just thinking they might be a terrorist then somethings badly wrong. Either they were very inexperienced and got carried away by false info, or were from the military (SAS or ITT) in which case they are brought in to kill, like the IRA shot in Gibraltar (i was there at the time), they were unarmed but one of them got 40 rounds in him.
Well well ; It seems that after-all this story has started to metamorph.
A month ago Met Police claimed they shot dead a bombing suspect in Stockwell cause ' He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away! '
Brazilian lawyers are in UK seeking a seperate inquiry into the 'murder' of de Menezes with the IPCC.
It also has been mentioned on SkyNews that as per CCTV footage, De Menezes:
1) Did not run into Stockwell Station.
2) Was wearing a white tracksuit jacket instead of the padded jacket police sources said.
3) Walked in so anaware that he was being followed, that he even had the chance to pick up a free newspaper at a stand.
4) Walked calmly down to the tube.
5) Only ran when he saw his train was about to leave
6) Did not oppose any resistance
If the enquiry by IPCC makes these statements true, (and we will only know in about 3 months), the case may be classified as Murder.
Originally posted by GCG
Well well ; It seems that after-all this story has started to metamorph.A month ago Met Police claimed they shot dead a bombing suspect in Stockwell cause ' He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away! '
Brazilian lawyers are in UK seeking a seperate inquiry into the 'murder' of de Menezes with the IPCC.
It also has been mentioned on SkyNews that as per CCTV footage, De Menezes:
1) Did not run into Stockwell Station.
2) Was wearing a white tracksuit jacket instead of the padded jacket police sources said.
3) Walked in so anaware that he was being followed, that he even had the chance to pick up a free newspaper at a stand.
4) Walked calmly down to the tube.
5) Only ran when he saw his train was about to leave
6) Did not oppose any resistance
If the enquiry by IPCC makes these statements true, (and we will only know in about 3 months), the case may be classified as Murder.
Indeed 🙁 extremely sad, like I said at the time in so many words you can't always trust what your being told by official sources.
To be quite honest, I doubt that in the space of 7-10 days there was adequate training handed over to the officers invloved in tell-telling suicide bomber suspects from (EG.) a bodybuilder going to the Gym, or a very cold sensitive person.
Altough a part of the blame would lay on the Officers involved consiences, I feel that they should have been trained in detecting body-language which gives out a lot more on a person's 'feel of the moment'.
Therfore the authoroties above, who so bragged about their BP, did little as in the 'prevention' field and focused more on Being Prepared for the consequences of an after-attack.
For example, they should have police pschologists and officers manning Infra-Red specs at potential tube stations scanning suspects BEFORE and approach so aas to avoid further embarassing situations.
Originally posted by GCG
To be quite honest, I doubt that in the space of 7-10 days there was adequate training handed over to the officers invloved in tell-telling suicide bomber suspects from (EG.) a bodybuilder going to the Gym, or a very cold sensitive person.Altough a part of the blame would lay on the Officers involved consiences, I feel that they should have been trained in detecting body-language which gives out a lot more on a person's 'feel of the moment'.
Therfore the authoroties above, who so bragged about their BP, did little as in the 'prevention' field and focused more on Being Prepared for the consequences of an after-attack.
For example, they should have police pschologists and officers manning Infra-Red specs at potential tube stations scanning suspects BEFORE and approach so aas to avoid further embarassing situations.
I agree with much of your thread although I have an inherent distrust of psychology 🙂
I think common sense would have been useful to the three "intelligence" officers on the train who "fingered" the suspect. They are as much to blame as the SO19 cops. We will see what we will see when the enquiry comes out although, Blaires "Houston we have a problem" line last week was unbelievably tactless.
Reading more into this case it seems to me that there is some political agenda involved in this whole incident.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4d2c82e8-134a-11da-beee-00000e2511c8.html
In a related story it seems to me that there was some bad communication within the 24hrs of the incident.
For those who wish to stay in a neutral opinion of the case (until more evidence is presented) check out the Disputed facts events from wikipedia.org
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not dismissing what they did wrong, it was a tragic and horrific mistake that, for Menezes family, cannot be forgiven.However, don't knock the entire British police force who, lest we forget, caught all 4 of the attempted bombers within a short space of time.
-AC
Oh sorry I forgot we only say, "that is the [nations] police force/army for ya" when it is in the United States. Damn, what was I thinking?