ROTS Obi-Wan vs. ROTS Mace Windu

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
That doesn't mean a thing... But anyways, Mace has been a master longer than Obi-Wan... his Force mastery is doubtlessly greater. ANd besides, the real factor here is lightsaber combat. Obi-Wan had pretty much mastered form III by ROTS. However, it was not enough to allow him to get the advantage of Dooku in the beginning. The only reason Obi-Wan won against Grievous was because the general pushed the attack. And Anakin was defeated using pure defense. Now, Mace Windu (WHOSE VAAPAD STYLE IS NOT STRONG AGAINST DARK SIDERS... GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEADS) has to master several styles in order to refine and create the final installment of Juyo. Meaning? He is not just keen on defense (And having a blaster bolt reflection technique similar to Form III) he has a superior offense, something Obi-Wan does not possess. In the end? Obi-Wan will tire himself out and Mace will defeat him, bar some unforseen accident. Odds in favor of Mace. Mace wins.

The master practitioners of Form IV make extensive use of acrobatic maneuvers often thought not physically possible. This form was created during the last centuries of the Old Republic. Qui-Gon Jinn and Yoda were both masters of Form IV, as shown in their duels against Darth Maul and Count Dooku, respectively. Obi-Wan Kenobi, though already very advanced, abandoned his Ataru training in favor of Form III because he felt that his master's death demonstrated a fatal flaw in the defensive capabilities of this form, nevertheless Kenobi applied Ataru acrobatics to face the Sith Lords Darth Tyranus and Darth Vader in Revenge of the Sith. Aayla Secura is also a master of Ataru, according to Jan Duursema, who co-created the Twi'lek Jedi; Quinlan Vos had taught Aayla Form IV. Palpatine used a Sith variant of this form, which included stabs and wide swings. Cin Drallig might have used this form against Anakin in the Revenge of the Sith Video Game.

In dire situations, Form IV practitioners use the Force to aid in their acrobatics. Spinning, jumping and running very fast and very high, masters of Form IV are sometimes only seen as a blur. In order to achieve the acrobatic prowess, amazing reflexes and physical punch of this form, a Jedi Master would focus on the Force, letting it flow deeply throughout his entire physicality, even allowing him to overcome the limitations of old age. Due to its aggressive nature, it is an effective form to use against single enemies; however, it leaves the user open to attacks from multiple opponents; therefore, it is wise to use Ataru in a duel, but not in open warfare. Jedi Master Yoda used this technique in almost all of his battles, due to his incredible connection to the force.

Nick Gillard, the creator of the lightsaber forms as we know it, and the author of what you just wrote pretty much, said that Obi-Wan practiced Ataru in TPM, but after the death of Qui-Gon Due to inadequate defense, Obi-Wan took up form III in earnest. He used it throughout the Clone Wars and up until ANH.

So you see, you're wrong.

He used form IV against Anakin because it is best used on 1 on 1 duels.

Thats absolute bullshit, form III is the perfect defensive forms. Obi Wan started using it because he felt form V wasn't good enough. Why would he change back to it in the most important duel of his life.

You mean form IV? Because Anakin wasn't going to give Obi-Wan an opening and he knew he wouldn't be able to stay on the defense or else he'll lose. If you didn't notice he fights just like Qui-Gon in TPM against Anakin.

Originally posted by Arbiter
Obi-Wan used form IV against Anakin in ROTS not form III.
Form IV: Ataru

The master practitioners of Form IV make extensive use of acrobatic maneuvers often thought not physically possible. This form was created during the last centuries of the Old Republic. Qui-Gon Jinn and Yoda were both masters of Form IV, as shown in their duels against Darth Maul and Count Dooku, respectively. Obi-Wan Kenobi, though already very advanced, abandoned his Ataru training in favor of Form III because he felt that his master's death demonstrated a fatal flaw in the defensive capabilities of this form, nevertheless Kenobi applied Ataru acrobatics to face the Sith Lords Darth Tyranus and Darth Vader in Revenge of the Sith. Aayla Secura is also a master of Ataru, according to Jan Duursema, who co-created the Twi'lek Jedi; Quinlan Vos had taught Aayla Form IV. Palpatine used a Sith variant of this form, which included stabs and wide swings. Cin Drallig might have used this form against Anakin in the Revenge of the Sith Video Game.

In dire situations, Form IV practitioners use the Force to aid in their acrobatics. Spinning, jumping and running very fast and very high, masters of Form IV are sometimes only seen as a blur. In order to achieve the acrobatic prowess, amazing reflexes and physical punch of this form, a Jedi Master would focus on the Force, letting it flow deeply throughout his entire physicality, even allowing him to overcome the limitations of old age. Due to its aggressive nature, it is an effective form to use against single enemies; however, it leaves the user open to attacks from multiple opponents; therefore, it is wise to use Ataru in a duel, but not in open warfare. Jedi Master Yoda used this technique in almost all of his battles, due to his incredible connection to the force.

*cough* Wiki bull *cough*

Listen, Obi-Wan played the defensive role. Even his final swipes were defensive in nature. The entire fight he matched Anakin's swings with his own, since Form V, Anakin's form, is basically built off of Form III foundations but with a focus on aggressiveness. He was not using Ataru... Nick Gillard says as much. I already posted that. You're wrong.

And even if Obi-Wan was, for the sake of argument, using Ataru against Mace, he did not master it and he would be destroyed.

End of story.

I'm sorry. Next time I would get my information from SuperShadow. He's more dependable then Wikipedia.

Form III: Soresu

After Darth Maul's defeat on Naboo, Obi-Wan Kenobi decided to perfect his practice of Form III lightsaber combat, the most defensive of all of the forms, since Qui-Gon Jinn, Kenobi's mentor and Form IV (Ataru) master, fell against Darth Maul.

Form III was originally developed to counteract the advancing blaster technology throughout the galaxy. Those to whom the Jedi were mainly opposed usually wielded blasters now; the Jedi needed to find a method to defend that could not be replicated or be counteracted by the Jedi's blaster-wielding enemies.

Inspired by the need to parry blaster-fire, the form utilizes motions occurring very close to the body to achieve near-total protection, efficiently expending as little energy as possible to execute these moves. This technique exposes as little body target zone open areas as is possible, making a well-trained practitioner nearly invincible. Practitioners of Soresu comfortably remain on the defensive until their opponents tire or make a mistake, only then do they strike offensively. Luminara Unduli and Barriss Offee are also proficient in this form. By the time of the events in Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan Kenobi is acknowledged as the master of Soresu, often referred to as the classic form.

Form V: Shien / Djem So

Form V is a powerful style developed by Form III practitioners that preferred a more offensive angle. The defensive nature of Form III often leads to dangerously prolonged combat. This style came about from combining Forms II and III. Anakin, both as himself and as Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, and Jedi Master Plo Koon are all practitioners of Form V. Jedi Master Agen Kolar may possibly have been a Form V practitioner since he favored aggressive negotiations.

Form V maintains its existence through having sufficient defensive skills, as derived from Form III, but channeling defense into offense. The example is commonly used that while Form III combatants effortlessly deflect laser bolts, Form V practitioners excel at redirecting the laser bolt toward the opponent. This simultaneously defends the user and efficiently injures the opponent. As well, it employs a basic form of Form II's parries, allowing the user to parry the attempted attack, and counter it. It is different from Form III in the fact that practictioners of Form V will press the assault, using wide, sweeping blows in an attempt to overwhelm the opponent with brute strength. The aggressive philosophy of Form V is the source of many a Jedi's disapproval.

Vader also created his own variant of Form V, where he would use only one hand to strike and defend, and have the other held casually by his side. This can be seen at the start of the duel in The Empire Strikes Back.

With the aggressive but yet refined movements of Form II and the highly defensive postures of Form III, Shien / Djem So has been proven to be an effective style.

And Obi-Wan did not play a defensive role because he was on the attack in the control room and when they were surfing on the lava because both of them were cornered. Obi-Wan clearly had to go on the attack and if you haven't noticed Obi-Wan is moving the way he did against Darth Maul in TPM. He perfered form III but he was highly advanced in form IV since that was the way he was trained as a Padawan. And compare the fight with Grievous or Dooku with Anakin and you can easily tell they are not the same forms.

Umm. . . that's because Grievous was on the run half the time and Obi-Wan ahd his lightsaber for about fifteen seconds. And Soresuis based purely on defense. The user waits for one to make a mistake, then strikes. Obi-Wan knocked Anakin's saber away. What need was there for saber-defense. And he started attacking Anakin with melee combat (hand-to-han) when they both lost weapons.

Your all wrong... Proceed...

Back to the point of the topic.
Obi-Wan vs. Mace
Obi-Wan would clearly wait for Mace to make a mistake and then Obi would go in for the attack.

Not really. I hate arguing against people like you, you never listen to reason or the arguments that are presented. To make you happy, Obi-Wan wins, okay?

In dire situations, Form IV practitioners use the Force to aid in their acrobatics. Spinning, jumping and running
Look at the beginning of Anakin vs. Obi-wan because Obi sure does a lot of spinning.

That's the most idiotic argument I've ever heard. I'm through here.

If all else fails use simple logic.

Mace - seen by all as the second most powerful Master, only to Yoda.
Mace - Developed his own style by his teens
Mace - Black and has Rythm.
Mace - Defeated Sidious
Mace - In case of Yoda his dead he would be the head of the council.
Mace - On the council since TPM
Mace - Did I mention he's black yet?
Mace - Yoda said Obi Wan could never beat Sidious, Mace did. Yoda would know.

And if that doesn't convince you of anything then really watch the damn movie and watch who is giving the orders and who is following them.

He was on the Council twelve years before TPM, when he was twenty- eight. Kenobi got on it at thirty-seven.

Originally posted by Arbiter
In dire situations, Form IV practitioners use the Force to aid in their acrobatics. Spinning, jumping and running
Look at the beginning of Anakin vs. Obi-wan because Obi sure does a lot of spinning.

Listen...

JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE LIGHTSABER STYLES AND WATCHED THE MOVIE DOESN'T MEAN YOUR LOGIC OWNS ALL.

It doesn't. If anything, it sucks. So give up already.

Originally posted by Fishy
If all else fails use simple logic.

Mace - seen by all as the second most powerful Master, only to Yoda.
Mace - Developed his own style by his teens
Mace - Black and has Rythm.
Mace - Defeated Sidious
Mace - In case of Yoda his dead he would be the head of the council.
Mace - On the council since TPM
Mace - Did I mention he's black yet?
Mace - Yoda said Obi Wan could never beat Sidious, Mace did. Yoda would know.

And if that doesn't convince you of anything then really watch the damn movie and watch who is giving the orders and who is following them.

Originally posted by Arbiter
Back to the point of the topic.
Obi-Wan vs. Mace
Obi-Wan would clearly wait for Mace to make a mistake and then Obi would go in for the attack.

Are u a f**ing moron Arbiter. If obi wan was better he would be 2nd in the coucil but he is not. So stop whining and defending possibly one of your fav char's.
Anywayz back to topic, MAce would own Obi wan, And mace would find obi wans mistake and weakness b4 Obi wan has a chance, let me remind you that mace has shatterpoint.

Let's look at the facts on why Obi-Wan wasn't second on the council.
Has only been on the council for a few months or years. They could have send Mace to kill Grievous but they wanted to send someone who was called 1 the greatest hero of the Clone War along with Anakin. Obi-Wan went to the frontlines and battled the CIS over and over again and Mace wasn't in as nearly as many battles as Obi-Wan.