Originally posted by doomsday49
lol...how did that prove hulk strength isn't limitless?
Jean removed his mindblock and left nothing but rage. Yet, in a slugfest he still had trouble. If he didn't have a limit, he'd walk all over Onslaught in a slugfest. He wouldn't get pinned down by Onslaught and be struggling.
And when he finally broke free and cracked the armor, Onslaught laughed at Hulk and the heroes because that's exactly what he needed to evolve into his final form. Heck, seems like Onslaught goaded heroes and allowed Hulk to beat him.
Limitless. 🙄
Originally posted by LGodamus
I never argued that Hulk would stand a chance of winning ..I just like to keep everyone on the same page, and not change the terminology...that way things can be argued on facts rather than people arguing semantics
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Originally posted by Beyonder
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No doubt Hulk has a shit load of high end feats. But he's also got low end feats as well. On average, Thor, Juggernaut, Wonder Man, Thing, Rhino, Abomination, Wendigo can give Hulk a good fight or win.
- he isn't winning.
I would say the juggernaut would give mangog a good fight. You're right dude, these guys have all fought hulk and won at one point. But hulk always come back and whoop them. By the way i wouldn't say hulk would lose to those guys on average.
1. Thor. Hardly a decisive win on both part
2. Juggernaut. Like the previous guy no decisive wins. Evenly match, both appear to have unlimited strength
3. Thing. Hulk won most of the time(thing have won some times i ain't gonna lie; i told you i am gonna be fair.
4. Abomination. Like thin took a few W, but whoop by hulk countless times.
5. Rhino. No contest.
6. Wendigo. Just like the top 2's.
Where is this on average wins coming from?
Here's the thing, all these character have different strength class, but hulk ultimately match up to them. When he was fighting thing, i don't think he was applying the same kind of strength as when he's fighting say Juggernaut. So in essence when he fought the juggernaut his strength had ultimately surpass the thing. So who's to say that all hulk need is another weight on his bar before he can continue climbing; which is in theory what his character is all about.
Originally posted by Beyonder
Jean removed his mindblock and left nothing but rage. Yet, in a slugfest he still had trouble. If he didn't have a limit, he'd walk all over Onslaught in a slugfest. He wouldn't get pinned down by Onslaught and be struggling.And when he finally broke free and cracked the armor, Onslaught laughed at Hulk and the heroes because that's exactly what he needed to evolve into his final form. Heck, seems like Onslaught goaded heroes and allowed Hulk to beat him.
Limitless. 🙄
😎
lol....so hulk was split beside his former self through sheer physical strength of onslaught. I thought him being of psionic nature had something to do with that but.... 🙂
Originally posted by doomsday49
I don't understand what's so hard about believing hulk has unlimited strength. you obviously believe mangog has the strength of billions of souls. Let me see you prove that.
Because Mangog IS consisted of billions of beings. Like Hulk IS a monster mutated by gamma radiation and gets stronger with rage. Like Thor wielding the power of a God. Like Norrin was turned into the Silver Surfer and Power Cosmic flowing through him.
But as for UNLIMITED strength. I don't by that. It's like the ALL POWERFUL thing. It ain't true unless where talking about uber cosmic deities.
Hulk is a super being, still not a cosmic deity. Him having unlimited strength is as b.s. as Surfer having unlimited Power Cosmic. Hulk is limited, Surfer is limited, - they aren't Eternity, Chaos, Order, LT, Death, etc. to have unlimited anything.
Hulk has limits. His body has a limit to what it takes. It's like saying DD can evolve from anything. Doomsday is a product of evolution and science. He can evolve pass some injuries. But really, can he evolve from ANYTHING? If Molecule Man, Galactus, or High Evolutionary to destroy him down to the subatomic level, blasted into oblivion, or de-evolve him to his first state of infancy, DD would be screwed.
DD has a limit. He ISN'T the personification of EVOLUTION; neither IS Hulk the personification of Rage and Strength.
doomsday49 quote: (post)
Originally posted by BeyonderI would say the juggernaut would give mangog a good fight. You're right dude, these guys have all fought hulk and won at one point. But hulk always come back and whoop them. By the way i wouldn't say hulk would lose to those guys on average.
I don't mean the winnings are even. I mean these guys can usually hand with Hulk to an extent and not get outright owned.
Even if Hulk has the potential to reach Mangog's strength level, will he have time to do it? Mangog starts off far far above Hulk's level. He kill Hulk before Hulk can even approach Mangog's level.
This is the same being that called Loki an insect compared to true gods (refering to himself), trapped Loki in mystical amber with much trouble and owning frost giants. Hulk isn't going to beat some who can matter manipulate and stomp him in a fight before he can try and reach Mangog's level to beat him.
"The turtle end up beating the hare doesn't he? Theoretically hulk would eventually surpass mangog in strength. "
I already explained why i dont view him doing it. He needs rage. If Hulk didnt needed rage to fuel his strenght, it would be something else.
Even so its still difficult to try to surpass someone strenght who already starts above and can give a kayo at any given moment.
"Go back and read tough guys post."
I dont need to re-read what he says. His m.o its always the same.
leo peeks around and dares to step in to this conversation . . .
<<Hulk is a super being, still not a cosmic deity.>>
you're right of course beyonder. however, you brought up onslaught, who WAS at cosmic being level. the dude created a sun (powerful matter/reality altering skill!) and was able to laugh off the efforts of an enormously powerful gathering of heroes. why was onslaught able to enhance his strength so far? because of the scope of his psionic powers - a scope no one was able to see the extent of but that was clearly above cable and nate. nate himself can amp his strength to ridiculous numbers. by going toe-to-toe with onslaught, hulk DID show he could battle a 'cosmic level threat'.
i also wonder - if it WAS onslaught's goal to be free of his armor -- (which i agree with) why didn't HE get out of it himself? perhaps he couldn't? perhaps he needed a strong enough force to free him? and the only one strong enough . . .? speculation of course, but why else wouldn't he have simply shucked the armor?
now i guess you gotta ask -- was onslaught at/near skyfather level to answer the question of this battle. i would contend that he was at somewhere near that level based on the ease with which he disposed of juggernaut and the way he was able to battle the heroes (thor alone in the past has had a great showing against zeus). i'd say onslaught was somewhere close to thanos. (galactic storm and i debated this for quite a while and sort of came out thinking they were at least comparable).
so . . . if onslaught IS somewhere around thanos level, (and thanos -- himself a cosmic entity -- has expressed trepidation regarding fighting the hulk) then the question might as well be -- could THANOS beat mangog in a fist fight? he can draw on a seemingly endless cosmic source to amp his strength, so . . .
you can also look at the fact that a non-savage/intelligent hulk went toe-to-toe with the destroyer for quite a while (though ultimately in that fight it APPEARED (fight wasn't over) the destroyer's OVERALL power was going to be too much). destroyer is another cosmic being, capable of defeating odin. how would mangog do against the destroyer?
like thanos, the hulk can draw from a limitless supply for his strength. his drawing strength is similar to quasar's ability to draw power. both have a limitless supply from which to draw -- ie his strength is POTENTIALLY limitless. of course his durability isn't so that doesn't mean he can't be ko'd, but in terms of sheer strength it's possible for him to match/exceed mangog. and if he did, that wouldn't mean he DID reach infinite strength/rage - just that he reached a level above mangog.
as far as mangog getting stronger off hate -- that's never been definitively shown. his nature is still something of a mystery.
now, who would win this fight? i certainly think it's closer than some do. the title of the thread is ENRAGED hulk, so his strength will already have been FAR above base when he enters the fight. ultimately, though, i think mangog (like destroyer) is just too damn powerful overall (more durable, more impervious), plus he has other powers. so mangog would win this. but i DO think it would be a hell of a fight and a fun one to read if hulk was written to his potential.
'pologies for the essay as i slink back out of this forever-a-hot-button conversation . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
[B]leo peeks around and dares to step in to this conversation . . .<<Hulk is a super being, still not a cosmic deity.>>
you're right of course beyonder. however, you brought up onslaught, who WAS at cosmic being level. the dude created a sun (powerful matter/reality altering skill!) and was able to laugh off the efforts of an enormously powerful gathering of heroes. why was onslaught able to enhance his strength so far? because of the scope of his psionic powers - a scope no one was able to see the extent of but that was clearly above cable and nate. nate himself can amp his strength to ridiculous numbers. by going toe-to-toe with onslaught, hulk DID show he could battle a 'cosmic level threat'.
He did. But only after Jean's help. Otherwise, Onslaught would've owned Hulk like he did Juggernaut. The fact that Hulk reach that level of strength was because of Jean. Hulk on his own would take some extensive time to reach that level. I mean beating up on Juggernaut physically ain't easily. Onslaught was that powerful.
i also wonder - if it WAS onslaught's goal to be free of his armor -- (which i agree with) why didn't HE get out of it himself? perhaps he couldn't? perhaps he needed a strong enough force to free him? and the only one strong enough . . .? speculation of course, but why else wouldn't he have simply shucked the armor?
Don't plot IMO. Hulk cracking up Onslaught's armor and the sacrfice of the heroes was so Marvel can make more money from Heroes Reborn and push Thunderbolt into mainstream attention.
From the comic book point, I don't know. Onslaught was powerful, but an idiot some times. Why he couldn't crack that armor was beyond me. Even during the slugfest, he seemed more powerful than Hulk.
now i guess you gotta ask -- was onslaught at/near skyfather level to answer the question of this battle. i would contend that he was at somewhere near that level based on the ease with which he disposed of juggernaut and the way he was able to battle the heroes (thor alone in the past has had a great showing against zeus). i'd say onslaught was somewhere close to thanos. (galactic storm and i debated this for quite a while and sort of came out thinking they were at least comparable).
Thor and the Avengers have gotten stomped by a serious Zeus. But I tend to see skyfathers leagues above herald level beings.
Plus, Thor was depowered during Onslaught saga. Strange and Surfer was nowhere in sight. Juggernaut for some reason got his gem ripped from his chest - a gem that was not suppose to be there in the first place. Onslaught Saga was full of holes. Where he truly was, I don't know. But I'll agree he's on Thanos' level.
so . . . if onslaught IS somewhere around thanos level, (and thanos -- himself a cosmic entity -- has expressed trepidation regarding fighting the hulk) then the question might as well be -- could THANOS beat mangog in a fist fight? he can draw on a seemingly endless cosmic source to amp his strength, so . . .
Problem being Hulk needed Jean's help to rage up to that level. Question is will Hulk be able to reach that level on his own before Mangog, Thanos, or Onslaught kicks Hulk's ass?
you can also look at the fact that a non-savage/intelligent hulk went toe-to-toe with the destroyer for quite a while (though ultimately in that fight it APPEARED (fight wasn't over) the destroyer's OVERALL power was going to be too much). destroyer is another cosmic being, capable of defeating odin. how would mangog do against the destroyer?
Depends on Destroyers animator(s). Thor too has survive fights with Destroyer. When Destroyer faced off with the Celestials, it was powered by all the asgardians, except Odin. Destroyer rivaling Odin in power depends on who's controlling it.
The way I see it, Mangog would stalemate Destroyer in most fights. Mangog has always been shown to handle Thor like a child, much like Kurse does.
like thanos, the hulk can draw from a limitless supply for his strength. his drawing strength is similar to quasar's ability to draw power. both have a limitless supply from which to draw -- ie his strength is POTENTIALLY limitless. of course his durability isn't so that doesn't mean he can't be ko'd, but in terms of sheer strength it's possible for him to match/exceed mangog. and if he did, that wouldn't mean he DID reach infinite strength/rage - just that he reached a level above mangog.
But how often in a fight is Hulk not enraged? The question is can he reach Mangog's level during a fight before he gets K.O.ed?
<<But how often in a fight is Hulk not enraged? The question is can he reach Mangog's level during a fight before he gets K.O.ed?>>
good points, all. my contention isn't necessarily that he would win the fight, but rather than he has the potential to reach mangog's level of strength. i agree -- jean shutting off hulk helped him increase his strength more quickly, but jean didn't 'give hulk strength'. that level of strength IS achieveable by the hulk, perhaps, as you said, not quickly enough. but then again, thor HAS lasted in prolonged fights with mangog, so maybe his level isn't SO far beyond hulk that he would get the ko quickly enough and perhaps the hulk WOULD have the chance to reach his level.
anyway, i still say it would be a pretty good fight.
"my contention isn't necessarily that he would win the fight, but rather than he has the potential to reach mangog's level of strength."
Yes, many are not seeing the POTENTIAL LIMITLESS strength....not really limitless. Maybe if Hulk runs, stop, get mad, run again, stop, get mad for at least an hour or more he might get to the level of Mangog.
"thor HAS lasted in prolonged fights with mangog, so maybe his level isn't SO far beyond hulk that he would get the ko quickly enough and perhaps the hulk WOULD have the chance to reach his level."
Thor did not use strength alone against Mangog. Thor had the skill to hang on, eventually only manage to defeat Mangog by killing him with a godblast in the mouth of Mangog.
just like he matched titannus blow for blow??? lol, you say the same things over and over and over again.
mangog is many many many times stronger than pretty much everybody... the destroyer *whom has beat hulk physically* juggernaut *whom has beat hulk physically* and probably titannus *whom has beaten hulk physically*