This is a good match IMO. I really don't have enough info to determine. I mean how strong was metal Vader. That would give me a better feel. Bastila was a good warrior on her own, but I think Force powers, such as Battle Meditation, made her more of a support fighter rather than a powerhouse. I would say Luke, even though Bastila puts up one hell of a fight.
joeyvermont, the fact that you are in Italy alone makes me think you are a good guy(I'm half Italian and I'm visiting my Italian Godparents right now). At the top it says ROTJ Luke. That means that it is Luke at his peak in ep6. NJO Luke was able to manipulate gravity, ROTJ Luke is still over twenty years from being able to do that.
Bastila of course... Luke knows some BASIC force stuff, but he has never confronted a real duelist.
Bastila uses a lightstaff, which had quite an impact agains QgJ and Obi1 because they propably had never eaven seen one ignited, let alone fought against one.
Luke might wonder if it's something eatable, before having it thrusted into his chest.
Only reason for Yoda and Obiwan to think that Luke might prevail against vader and palpyman was the fact that they had had like a 20 years vacation from active dueling.
Surely Luke is likely to be way "stronger with the force", but so was anakin when storming obi wan on mustafar. It was obi's wisdom and experience combined with anakin's arrogance, which enabled him to gain victory.
Bastila wins this in all her forms, but the later it is the better.
First of all, Luke would not know how to fight somebody like her, her style is different and the way she moves her lightsaber and the way her lightsabe is build, it would be hard for Luke to understand and follow. Second of all Bastila would attack with fury's and the force, she would take Luke back inch y inch until he would fail. Luke wouldd not know what to do except for attack head on, surely somebody more powerful would be able to take that back.
A question i always ask, in every thread with Bastila. Which Bastila, PreKotor, Kotor, PostKotor? PreKotor 50/50, Kotor 75/25, Post 90/10. The reason I think she would win, she had more actual Jedi training since she was 4 or something. Luke started late, and Yoda didnt really have the resources to properly train luke. And, as i always, say, Bastila's too pretty to die. Luke is just...a big whiner.
Luke defeated Vader in one-on-one combat though. GL even says this. Luke also took almost a minute of force lightning from Sidious and got up after looking a little pale and breathing hard. Anakin was hit by Dooku and sat there like a weiner for a long time. This means that Luke has far better resistance to force lightning than ep2 Anakin and is better in an overall fight, by a little, than ep6 Vader. Can you seriously say that Bastila could take Vader?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke defeated Vader in one-on-one combat though. GL even says this. Luke also took almost a minute of force lightning from Sidious and got up after looking a little pale and breathing hard. Anakin was hit by Dooku and sat there like a weiner for a long time. This means that Luke has far better resistance to force lightning than ep2 Anakin and is better in an overall fight, by a little, than ep6 Vader. Can you seriously say that Bastila could take Vader?
Dammit Glentract. Every time I think you're okay you go and say something like this.
Luke had several factors in his favor. The biggest one being that Vader didn't want to kill his son! GL says that too.
Yes, he was shocked by Force lightning for almost a minute. Bastila was tortured with it for perhaps days before she even broke. PLease, it's a nonissue anyways. Drop it. And you can't compare the power of Sidious' lightning to Dooku's lightning because it's inconsistant all the way around. For dramatic neccessity's sake, Anakin was down, just as Yoda was, and just as Luke was able to get up. If Luke hadn't gotten up, he'd be dead and the series would have been a flop. So please, don't say that when it comes to Sith lightning, Luke >Anakin, Bastila, and Yoda, because we know that's a bunch of shit. If anything, Sidious was torturing Skywalker, not killing or incapacitating him. Probably because he wanted Skywalker to suffer or break.
And yes, Bastila could take Episode VI Vader. He sucks. He's slow, his command of the Force as displayed is lacking, and his victories at this point rank against old people who have given up the fight and a small barely trained farm boy. Please, don't blow Vader in your attempt to persuade me. Bastila has defeated at the very least a dark jedi, and she was worthy enough for Malak and Revan both to want her as their second in command. If mech-Vader had existed in KOTOR times, he would have been lucky to lead a small infantry unit with his piss poor skills.
Bastila wins this. End of story.
Ya, I go on my little rants for the underdog, but I usually can sleep it off.
In ESB, according to Emperor Revan, Vader goes full on against Luke after Luke gets a lucky hit at daddies shoulder. Luke manages to hold out against Vader for some time before losing his hand.
Same in ROTJ. Luke goes as hard as he can against Luke when Luke is in his little DS rage. Luke beats him solidly.
About the lightning, just because it is WAY in Luke's favor I feel you are trying to make it a moot point. Sure the lightning wasn't nearly as strong as what Sidious was throwing at Yoda or Mace, but it looked to be at least as hard as Dooku's. Luke is definatly a lot better than Anakin as resisting force lightning.
About Vader being piss-poor. That is unsupported IMO. I don't see any reason for Sidious to have gotten any weaker and it has been stated that Vader in OT times is about 80% as good as Sidious. If Sidious is at least close to Yoda, I would say not less than 90%, then Vader in PT times will be more than(sorry, it's late here so my math is probably wrong) 72% of Yoda. Luke is better than Vader, so he must be <72% of Yoda. I don't think Bastila is nearly that good.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ya, I go on my little rants for the underdog, but I usually can sleep it off.In ESB, according to Emperor Revan, Vader goes full on against Luke after Luke gets a lucky hit at daddies shoulder. Luke manages to hold out against Vader for some time before losing his hand.
Same in ROTJ. Luke goes as hard as he can against Luke when Luke is in his little DS rage. Luke beats him solidly.
About the lightning, just because it is WAY in Luke's favor I feel you are trying to make it a moot point. Sure the lightning wasn't nearly as strong as what Sidious was throwing at Yoda or Mace, but it looked to be at least as hard as Dooku's. Luke is definatly a lot better than Anakin as resisting force lightning.
About Vader being piss-poor. That is unsupported IMO. I don't see any reason for Sidious to have gotten any weaker and it has been stated that Vader in OT times is about 80% as good as Sidious. If Sidious is at least close to Yoda, I would say not less than 90%, then Vader in PT times will be more than(sorry, it's late here so my math is probably wrong) 72% of Yoda. Luke is better than Vader, so he must be <72% of Yoda. I don't think Bastila is nearly that good.
According to Emperor Revan. I hate to break this to you, but there's two people that Emperor Revan loves above all else in the SW universe. One's Luke. The other's in his SN. But since I've watched ESB probably every year since before I could write in cursive, I'll clear this up: Vader's intent thoughout this whole fight is to take Luke alive. He never gives him his full measure, although he does in a moment of rage take off Luke's hand, sending his lightsaber flying along with it. This just goes to show that if Vader wasn't holding back, even for a few seconds, he'd destroy Luke the barely trained farmboy. So the fight goes like this- Vader wants top capture Luke so he basically toys with him. Luke nabs him on the shoulder (And it wasn't even a clean blow, a clean blow would have killed Vader or at the very least severed his arm at the shoulder) so Vader loses his temper with his son and sends his arm flying. So for this entire fight, Vader isn't trying and Luke isn't proving that he can defeat Bastila.
The battle in ROTJ is almost always cited for the premise "Luke pwns Vader fair and square." I'd like to point out a few things:
- The battle turned for Luke once he came out of hiding and attacked Vader.
- At this point, all he did was lash out wildly. And all Vader did was defend, rather feebly. For all those who say Vader's robotic arms are super strong,btw, here's proof they're not. If they were, why the hell would Vader be beaten down by Luke? You could say it was the Force granting him power, but shouldn't Vader be able to do the same? Or was he just so at a loss at this point that he couldn't defend himself properly? No, Luke does not defeat Vader on even ground here, and Vader never tries to level the playing field. The victory here is very one-sided, much like Vader's victory against Obi-Wan. Saying Luke "Beat him solidly" is the same as saying Vader beat Obi-Wan "solidly". I didn't see a decent effort to defend themselves one way or the other at the end of each fight.
Uh huh. Let's try this part on the lightning again. Here's your argument: It LOOKS way stronger than Dooku's, which put Anakin on his ass. But your big problem here is one of assumption. Dooku's lightning was relatively tame at that point. The only lightning Dooku used that was even close to what Sidious used was when he confronted Yoda. And even then he didn't use both hands. I could just as easily say that Dooku using both hands would be much more powerful than Sidious BECAUSE it put Yoda on the defensive and it put Anakin on his ass. So this would undermine Sidious and make Luke out to be a bigger ***** than Anakin. SO the point is, you can't prove anything based on how it looks. You can't prove the intensity of any of the attacks except by their results, and Sidious' lightning in ROTJ showed the weakest results. Thus it makes sense that it would not be as strong as say, Sidious' lighting as used against Yoda, since that was a concussive attack. It is closer to the type used against Mace Windu, which tortured him as Sidious' laughed, and then (I believe at this point) Mace was force shoved out of the window to plummet to his death. And after all is said and done, this does nothing to prove that Luke Skywalker can defeat Bastila Shan in lightsaber combat. thanks for playing the game.
It has been stated that Vader's FORCE POWERS are about 80% of Sidious', not that his combat ability is reflective of that. If anything, Sidious hasn't lifted his lightsaber in twenty some years, so if you apply this analogy to work for all of time starting with Mustafar on, Vader would theoretically get weaker with time, as the emperor atrophies. Now, if you say that no, SIdious doesn't atrophy, that he stays the same in lightsaber skill, etc. Than you must conclude that Vader never gets any better from the point at which he becomes Mecha Vader, for that very same reason. GL says think outside of the box, Glentract. The 80% phrase doesn't add up.
And anyone can see for themselves that OT Vader is NOWHERE near Yoda as he was in the PT. His moves are slow, his Force powers are pretty standard fare, and he isn't even real for the most part; he's half machine. Any argument FOR Vader being a badass is rooted in fanboyish tendencies and has no factual basis.
Now, why do I think Bastila can beat Luke?
- She's had training as a Jedi longer than he has by far.
- She's defeated lightsaber wielding enemies that are just as dangerous if not moreso than Vader. And when I say this, I mean a dark jedi who uses the Force to aid his movements and actions is potentially more dangerous than clunky Vader.
- She has a better command of the Force than Luke does, obviously.
- The whole reason you think Bastila can't beat Luke is totally unsupported.
Good points Janus, but about the lightning thing however, I'm surprised you didn't bring this point up:
Look carefully at what Dooku did to Anakin in AOTC, he shocked him, threw him and Anakin smacked his head HARD against the wall. I think Anakin smacking his head against the wall was what had him down for so long, not the lightning.