Originally posted by PVS
the damage caused by such recklessness is the product of immorality.
but if you subscribe to the idea that morality is an illusion,
whats the point of debating specifics? really dude?
I don't say it'*s an illusion..I say it's a personal decision...everyone can have their own morals...and they are not right or wrong....and society can have their own morals...but they are neither right or wrong either......and the point in debatring is that I have a different opinion than you and othery on here and In personally enjoy debates...if you don't great...don't reply then...but my opinion is just as much worth a debate than yours.....
I'm agreeing with PVS here.
It's not a matter of what's moral to you because a relationship is a factual commitment (or should be by definition) between two people. You enter it to commit to the person because you want to be with them. If you're not sure what you want, don't commit and if you feel like you want someone else longer into the relationship, end it before you cheat.
Cheating is unacceptable and there's simply no reason for it.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm agreeing with PVS here.It's not a matter of what's moral to you because a relationship is a factual commitment (or should be by definition) between two people. You enter it to commit to the person because you want to be with them. If you're not sure what you want, don't commit and if you feel like you want someone else longer into the relationship, end it before you cheat.
Cheating is unacceptable and there's simply no reason for it.
-AC
I mean I personally agree..but on what grounds can I or you blame someone that doesn't ...it's a personal thing, nothing more.... (and what if it is only a girlfriend...you didn't really commit to a contract there....)
Originally posted by Bardock42
I mean I personally agree..but on what grounds can I or you blame someone that doesn't ...it's a personal thing, nothing more.... (and what if it is only a girlfriend...you didn't really commit to a contract there....)
Firstly, it's a girlfriend therefore it's a relationship and it's a commitment.
Second, people who don't agree are simply just ignorant. Because a relationship is a commitment and breaking the commitment in such a needless and heartbreaking way does damage in so many ways than it ever needs to.
More to the point, you asked on what grounds can you or I blame someone who doesn't agree. Well if you're being cheated on, your partner clearly doesn't agree. You're not seriously gonna say to me that you'd say to them "Well it's ok, we just had a many years long relationship of love, it wasn't marriage. Can't really blame you for f*cking another man behind my back." Surely.
Maybe I'm biased because it's happened to me, but the fact that it's wrong doesn't change anything.
-AC
Well but you assue that soeone having a girlfriend will silently agree to a monogamic relationship....this doesn't have to eb the case...
Yeah they probably are ignorant but it can hurt people as much either way...and maybe it is even good for a relationship who knows...it'S clearly not a black and white thing......everyone has to see that at least....
I asked what grounds you could blame them on......of course the person cheated on can blame them for harming their psychological state but someone outside of this relationship has no right to say it was wrong or it was right or whatever....
bardock, if you're opinion is that hurting someone else is not universally moral or immoral, then what is universally moral or immoral? nothing.
if its subjective then its just an illusion, an idea we've concocted.
and what if it is? fine whatever. maybe some topics of morality are subjective, like homosexuality, premarital sex....things that hurt nobody, but some people just cant deal with it because they love to impose their will on others...fine i'll give you that.
but there is a core to morality as i've said before: don't hurt other people.
that IS universal. and even if mankind just made it up, its a rule that is tried and true. its routinely broken of coarse, but such is humanity. point being: basic fundamental morals DO exist. made up or not, every decent person on this planet has an instinct to not hurt others. many choose to defy that instict out of anger, greed, lust etc, or perhaps they were never raise properly so they have no real concept of whats right. but i refuse to subscribe to the idea that its only opinion that hurting innocent people is wrong. thats just 'devil's advocate' nonesense and you know it. if you want to make this purely phylosophical in the same vain as "life is just an illusion" then i guess we can, but whats the point?
and as for your previous point that laws are created for self preservation rather than morality, thats a weak point. both go hand in hand. i, for example, refrain from hurting others due to my conscience and sense of right and wrong. not simply out of fear of consequence
my conscience is also a factor. laws are written from both factors: self preservation, but also good conscience.
Originally posted by PVS
bardock, if you're opinion is that hurting someone else is not universally moral or immoral, then what is universally moral or immoral? nothing.
That is exactly my point...there is no Universal Moral.
Originally posted by PVS
if its subjective then its just an illusion, an idea we've concocted.
I am not familiar with the word concocted, and checking it on Dictionary.com didn't help me what edxactly ou meant with that.
Originally posted by PVS
and what if it is? fine whatever. maybe some topics of morality are subjective, like homosexuality, premarital sex....things that hurt nobody, but some people just cant deal with it because they love to impose their will on others...fine i'll give you that.
Good.....I take that.....
Originally posted by PVS
but there is a core to morality as i've said before: don't hurt other people.
that IS universal. and even if mankind just made it up, its a rule that is tried and true. its routinely broken of coarse, but such is humanity. point being: basic fundamental morals DO exist. made up or not, every decent person on this planet has an instinct to not hurt others. many choose to defy that instict out of anger, greed, lust etc, or perhaps they were never raise properly so they have no real concept of whats right. but i refuse to subscribe to the idea that its only opinion that hurting innocent people is wrong. thats just 'devil's advocate' nonesense and you know it. if you want to make this purely phylosophical in the same vain as "life is just an illusion" then i guess we can, but whats the point?
It'S not a universal core though...it is a need of all humans...we don't want to get hurt so it is logical that the first moral we create is "Don't hurt another"
And as you said...people that don't get raised properly don't have that sense of morals (some do, because psychology is a very, very hard thing to understand) ...but the basis of that is...decent people become decent because they get raised decent....
And I really don't want to play Devils Advocate...if someone breaks the law he'll get Punished, if someone breaks the Morals of Society he might get punished too...but I won't judge them morally because there is nothing I could base such a judgement on...
Originally posted by PVS
and as for your previous point that laws are created for self preservation rather than morality, thats a weak point. both go hand in hand. i, for example, refrain from hurting others due to my conscience and sense of right and wrong. not simply out of fear of consequence
my conscience is also a factor. laws are written from both factors: self preservation, but also good conscience.
It is not a weak point..it is actually true...as you said Conscience is just another way of ensuring that people will stick to the Laws. They are not created because there is a conscience but a conscience is created because people get raised to agree to the Moral Standards of Society.
Someone that never heard of Right owr wrong won't care the least if he steals something, because a Conscience is something conditioned to us...not something universal.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well but you assue that soeone having a girlfriend will silently agree to a monogamic relationship....this doesn't have to eb the case...
If you enter a relationship and don't specify that it's "open" (which I think is bullshit anyway), then you are more or less agreeing that it's not open.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah they probably are ignorant but it can hurt people as much either way...and maybe it is even good for a relationship who knows...it'S clearly not a black and white thing......everyone has to see that at least....
Have you been cheated on? I'm leaning toward no because I don't THINK anyone who has would say it's good for a relationship. It is pretty black and white, there's not any grey area. If you enter a relationship and you stray, it's cheating and it's wrong.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I asked what grounds you could blame them on......of course the person cheated on can blame them for harming their psychological state but someone outside of this relationship has no right to say it was wrong or it was right or whatever....
It is wrong though. Granted, circumstances differ, but cheating is a wrong act. If the husband beats the wife and she cheats by going with a man who cares about her, I'm inclined to say it's the lesser of the two evils but I still don't condone cheating.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you enter a relationship and don't specify that it's "open" (which I think is bullshit anyway), then you are more or less agreeing that it's not open.Have you been cheated on? I'm leaning toward no because I don't THINK anyone who has would say it's good for a relationship. It is pretty black and white, there's not any grey area. If you enter a relationship and you stray, it's cheating and it's wrong.
It is wrong though. Granted, circumstances differ, but cheating is a wrong act. If the husband beats the wife and she cheats by going with a man who cares about her, I'm inclined to say it's the lesser of the two evils but I still don't condone cheating.
-AC
I guess you are right, but its only between those two...not something we can talk them in.....
I have not, and to tell that right away I haven't even been in a relationship, so i can't judge fro first hand experience aboot the eotional side involved......but there is not only pain on the side of the person that was cheated on but also the person that cheats and the person they cheat with are emotional involved...yes I guess it must be very painful to be chesated on, but maybe it's as painful to break up, or not to be able to be together with the loved person...there'S more that has to be taken into consideration. Sure, if I was invoilved I wouldn't see it objectively but we can cause we are talkign hypothetical situations here....
But by whose standards is it wrong? Surely not by the standards of thee person that cheated.....so are your Moral beliefs the right ones? Or is it societies? What if Society would now see Cheating as right? .....
Originally posted by Bardock42
yes I guess it must be very painful to be chesated on, but maybe it's as painful to break up, or not to be able to be together with the loved person...there'S more that has to be taken into consideration. Sure, if I was invoilved I wouldn't see it objectively but we can cause we are talkign hypothetical situations here....
This is one of those situations that you seriously cannot understand until you've been in it. Now I'm not patronising you here, but it's true.
It's one of the single most painful things I've ever gone through in my entire life, and I've gone through some shit.
Your whole standpoint boils down to your inexperience. As for it being wrong, I don't believe that all things considered, cheating is acceptable.
When someone gives you their trust, their love and their respect, surely it would be any decent human being's reply to respect that. Even if it means openly ending it to pursue other avenues.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is one of those situations that you seriously cannot understand until you've been in it. Now I'm not patronising you here, but it's true.It's one of the single most painful things I've ever gone through in my entire life, and I've gone through some shit.
Your whole standpoint boils down to your inexperience. As for it being wrong, I don't believe that all things considered, cheating is acceptable.
When someone gives you their trust, their love and their respect, surely it would be any decent human being's reply to respect that. Even if it means openly ending it to pursue other avenues.
-AC
I agree totally, but thats an adult perspective AC as a child I did not hold to that and I suspect you did not either, you like me had to learn this for yourself the hard way. 🙂
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I agree totally, but thats an adult perspective AC as a child I did not hold to that and I suspect you did not either, you like me had to learn this for yourself the hard way. 🙂
I'm not even out of my teens yet, Whirly. This all happened, legally, while I was still a "child" in the eyes of the law.
-AC
Originally posted by PVS
you mean- inexperience and bias.anyway, it has everything to do with the topic but no bearing on your philisophical devil's advocate "everything is an illusion" spinoff of the topic.
Yes.....I someties lose all grib of the English Language (or the German for that matter) 🙁
You are probably right, I brought this off-.topic...I apologize.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I am sorry, yes I might be inexpirienced but this has nothing to do with it, it is a philosophical problem you either take morals as absolute or as subjective......so your unexpiriencedness as well as your biasedness don't havce anything to do with this discussion.
Well considering we're discussing infidelity and you've never even experienced it's effects (which are a major relevant factor) nor the effects of fidelity, you've not got much at all to do with this discussion have you?
-AC