Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Pardon, but is there some place that states Sidious can't use his Force powers? His mastery of the Force is greater than Dooku's, Obi-Wan's, or Anakin's. He's leagues above the latter two - and above even Dooku's.
Still he can't focus on using his force powers while 3 people with lightsaber skills like that start fighting him. He would raise his hand to do something and have it cut off in the next moment.
1. Yoda told Obi-Wan, "strong enough to defeat Sidious, you are not." So no, Nai. Sidious would probably own Obi-Wan. Which means he could own Anakin.
What a great interpretation. Obi-Wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, right. That doesn't mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Think about it.
2. Sidious would lose, indeed. But he would probably take one or two with him.
No he won't because he won't survive this for more than 30 seconds.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still he can't focus on using his force powers while 3 people with lightsaber skills like that start fighting him. He would raise his hand to do something and have it cut off in the next moment.What a great interpretation. Obi-Wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, right. That doesn't mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Think about it.
No he won't because he won't survive this for more than 30 seconds.
1. Sidious can be very quick when using the Force - as we saw with his battle with Yoda. According to you, Sidious's hands suddenly sprung up and "caught Yoda" off guard. If he can do that to Yoda, he can sure as hell do it to Anakin, Obi-Wan, and possibly even Dooku. So don't even start.
2. What the hell? Obi-Wan wanted to go off gun-ho and attack the Emperor. Yoda told him he wasn't strong enough to defeat Palpatine. You're drawing straws here, Nai. Facts and that particular statement proves that Obi-Wan would not defeat Sidious - otherwise Yoda would have let him go off and fight him. You're trying to make Sidious look bad by saying Obi-Wan could beat him. Guess what, Nai. Yoda himself said he wasn't capable of doing it.
3. Like I said. I believe Sidious would lose. But Dooku himself couldn't beat him and neither could Obi-Wan or Anakin (by themselves) or individually. Dooku and he are almost matched - with Dooku being the flat-out better duelist and Sidious being flat-out better with the Force. In this particular duel, as I told the maker of this thread, Sidious would NOT win. But against Dooku or Obi-Wan and Anakin, he could win. It would be hard for him to beat Dooku, but I do believe he could do it.
So stop trying to make Sidious look weak. He was Dooku's master, and if anything - Dooku was afraid of Sidious (Dark Rendezvous). One must wonder why? And you, who often discredit Sidious's manipulation skills - ought not to bank it as the cause of Dooku being scared. Dooku is awesome and I defend him often. But you're being biased. Very biased.
I dunno. Obi-Wan is skilled. And so is Anakin. As a team, they work extremely will. No, if anyone slays Sidious in this duel, it would be Dooku. He's the only one close to match Sidious's power and skill. Those two would be distractions. If I had to bet on who would land the killing blow - Count Dooku has my bet.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. Sidious can be very quick when using the Force - as we saw with his battle with Yoda. According to you, Sidious's hands suddenly sprung up and "caught Yoda" off guard. If he can do that to Yoda, he can sure as hell do it to Anakin, Obi-Wan, and possibly even Dooku. So don't even start.
Yes. He can take one of them off guard with a single blast which wouldn't kill him and then get cut into pieces by the other two. Now...that would be great. lol.
2. What the hell? Obi-Wan wanted to go off gun-ho and attack the Emperor. Yoda told him he wasn't strong enough to defeat Palpatine. You're drawing straws here, Nai. Facts and that particular statement proves that Obi-Wan would not defeat Sidious - otherwise Yoda would have let him go off and fight him. You're trying to make Sidious look bad by saying Obi-Wan could beat him. Guess what, Nai. Yoda himself said he wasn't capable of doing it.
Would you please think before replying. I only said that if Obi-Wan is not strong enough to defeat Sidious that does not automatically mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Got it now ?
3. Like I said. I believe Sidious would lose. But Dooku himself couldn't beat him and neither could Obi-Wan or Anakin (by themselves) or individually. Dooku and he are almost matched - with Dooku being the flat-out better duelist and Sidious being flat-out better with the Force. In this particular duel, as I told the maker of this thread, Sidious would NOT win. But against Dooku or Obi-Wan and Anakin, he could win. It would be hard for him to beat Dooku, but I do believe he could do it.
Dooku can kill Sidious. I don't want this discussion again. Dooku would kill him on his own so it doesn't matter who else you throw in.
So stop trying to make Sidious look weak. He was Dooku's master, and if anything - Dooku was afraid of Sidious (Dark Rendezvous). One must wonder why? And you, who often discredit Sidious's manipulation skills - ought not to bank it as the cause of Dooku being scared. Dooku is awesome and I defend him often. But you're being biased. Very biased.
I am biased ? Great. Have a look at the facts. Sidious lost in a lightsaber duel to somebody that is inferior to Dooku when it comes to force powers and lightsaber skills (Mace Windu) in less than 30 seconds. This is a fact. And still you believe that he can take Dooku in a fair fight ? You're really funny.
What did Sidious ever do in a fight except catching people off guard / surprising them ? When he doesn't have an advantage he loses. Seen against Mace. Same would happen in a fair fight vs Yoda or Dooku.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. He can take one of them off guard with a single blast which wouldn't kill him and then get cut into pieces by the other two. Now...that would be great. lol.Would you please think before replying. I only said that if Obi-Wan is not strong enough to defeat Sidious that [b]does not
automatically mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Got it now ?Dooku can kill Sidious. I don't want this discussion again. Dooku would kill him on his own so it doesn't matter who else you throw in.
I am biased ? Great. Have a look at the facts. Sidious lost in a lightsaber duel to somebody that is inferior to Dooku when it comes to force powers and lightsaber skills (Mace Windu) in less than 30 seconds. This is a fact. And still you believe that he can take Dooku in a fair fight ? You're really funny.
What did Sidious ever do in a fight except catching people off guard / surprising them ? When he doesn't have an advantage he loses. Seen against Mace. Same would happen in a fair fight vs Yoda or Dooku. [/B]
First and foremost, Nai, I said Sidious would lose. But not to the pathetic degree your making it out to be.
1. No. Obi-Wan and Anakin combined don't measure up to Yoda. Like I said, Dooku is the only legitimate threat here - the others are mere distractions. They stand no chance against Sidious without Dooku, as much as you'd like to believe otherwise.
2. No. It means Sidious CAN kill Obi-Wan - otherwise Yoda would have sent him after Sidious. Yoda said he couldn't defeat Sidious. You have no proof to state that Sidious could NOT kill Obi-Wan. Sidious is easily the most powerful practitioner of the Force in the PT movies (excluding Yoda). So don't even try to make it sound otherwise, Nai.
3. Yes Nai. It's conceivable that anyone can kill anyone, given the right circumstances. If Dooku managed to isolate Sidious and negate his superior Force-powers, Dooku could outfight him in a duel. But there is no definate or concrete path that says Dooku will. Sidious was the master. Dooku was not. Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception using the Force. Dooku did not. Sidious's foresight was unrivaled in the movies. Dooku expressed little of this. Sidious has the greater Force powers, and Dooku has the superior dueling ability. So, if Dooku manages to outmaneuver Sidious and eliminate his master's superior Force ability, he might win. But on his own, it's not guarenteed.
4. More of this "catching off guard" crap. Alright. If Sidious caught the Jedi Masters off guard, then I suppose Mace did the same thing when he kicked Sidious's lightsaber away. I suppose Dooku caught Anakin off guard when he severed his arm. Get my drift? Mace managed to outfight him. As for the others, Palpatine simply over powered them. They were prepared to fight him Nai. So stop making it like he caught them napping.
The fight would start with Sidious making the first move. Now, Sidious is stronger than any of the others, but not by much. He does, however, appear to be good at fighting multiple opponents at once. He'd fight hard but be ultimately doomed. Like I said, he is powerful, so I think there would be casualties, no deaths but injuries. I'll say Obi-Wan gets the injuries. He fights horribly when there are other people fighting alongside him and seems to ghet injured. Maybe just a cut arm or something, nothing to horrible.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. No. Obi-Wan and Anakin combined don't measure up to Yoda. Like I said, Dooku is the only legitimate threat here - the others are mere distractions. They stand no chance against Sidious without Dooku, as much as you'd like to believe otherwise.
Your a goddamn Sidious fanboy. Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo would kick Sidious ass. Sidious might be some nice force user but he isn't the master duellist you think he is. And - unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin - he neither participated in real battles nor had much time for training lightsaber combat.
2. No. It means Sidious CAN kill Obi-Wan - otherwise Yoda would have sent him after Sidious. Yoda said he couldn't defeat Sidious. You have no proof to state that Sidious could NOT kill Obi-Wan. Sidious is easily the most powerful practitioner of the Force in the PT movies (excluding Yoda). So don't even try to make it sound otherwise, Nai.
What a logic. Sidious needs to be defeated. Obi-Wan can't do this. So Yoda wouldn't send Obi-Wan because he wouldn't be able to do what is needed. So you have no proof that Sidious can kill Obi-Wan. And what the hell does the force do in that ? Only thing Sidious can do is use force lightning and we all know that Obi-Wan is able to deflect it with his lightsaber.
3. Yes Nai. It's conceivable that anyone can kill anyone, given the right circumstances. If Dooku managed to isolate Sidious and negate his superior Force-powers, Dooku could outfight him in a duel. But there is no definate or concrete path that says Dooku will. Sidious was the master. Dooku was not. Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception using the Force. Dooku did not. Sidious's foresight was unrivaled in the movies. Dooku expressed little of this. Sidious has the greater Force powers, and Dooku has the superior dueling ability. So, if Dooku manages to outmaneuver Sidious and eliminate his master's superior Force ability, he might win. But on his own, it's not guarenteed.
Man. This is getting boring. Sidious has only slightly more force power compared to Dooku. Get it. And your points are - as always - great.
Sidious was the master. I explained that a dozen of times.
Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception - lol. How should Dooku have done that ? All knew he was a Jedi.
And Sidious foresight is so unrivaled that he:
- didn't know Yoda survived the Jedi Purge
- didn't know that Yoda was coming
- didn't know Mace would beat him
- didn't know that Anakin would be in danger on Mustafar
- didn't know that the rebels would be sucessful in ROTJ
Oh...what a great foresight.
4. More of this "catching off guard" crap. Alright. If Sidious caught the Jedi Masters off guard, then I suppose Mace did the same thing when he kicked Sidious's lightsaber away. I suppose Dooku caught Anakin off guard when he severed his arm. Get my drift? Mace managed to outfight him. As for the others, Palpatine simply over powered them. They were prepared to fight him Nai. So stop making it like he caught them napping.
Catching somebody off guard who is already fighting with you is not possible unless he's stupid. The Jedi masters weren't "in combat" same counts for Yoda. Anakin was in combat with Dooku so was Sidious with Mace.
If they were ready to fight him and he didn't surprise them he would have died.
- didn't know Yoda survived the Jedi Purge
- didn't know that Yoda was coming
- didn't know Mace would beat him
- didn't know that Anakin would be in danger on Mustafar
- didn't know that the rebels would be sucessful in ROTJ
Hmm... He didn't know that Vader would bench press him into a Generator, now did he?
That also adds a point that he didn't know that Vader would become good or help his son.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Your a goddamn Sidious fanboy. Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo would kick Sidious ass. Sidious might be some nice force user but he isn't the master duellist you think he is. And - unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin - he neither participated in real battles nor had much time for training lightsaber combat.What a logic. Sidious needs to be defeated. Obi-Wan can't do this. So Yoda wouldn't send Obi-Wan because he wouldn't be able to do what is needed. So you have no proof that Sidious can kill Obi-Wan. And what the hell does the force do in that ? Only thing Sidious can do is use force lightning and we all know that Obi-Wan is able to deflect it with his lightsaber.
Man. This is getting boring. Sidious has only slightly more force power compared to Dooku. Get it. And your points are - as always - great.
Sidious was the master. I explained that a dozen of times.
Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception - lol. How should Dooku have done that ? All knew he was a Jedi.
And Sidious foresight is so unrivaled that he:
- didn't know Yoda survived the Jedi Purge
- didn't know that Yoda was coming
- didn't know Mace would beat him
- didn't know that Anakin would be in danger on Mustafar
- didn't know that the rebels would be sucessful in ROTJOh...what a great foresight.
Catching somebody off guard who [b]is already fighting with you
is not possible unless he's stupid. The Jedi masters weren't "in combat" same counts for Yoda. Anakin was in combat with Dooku so was Sidious with Mace.
If they were ready to fight him and he didn't surprise them he would have died. [/B]
Making excuses, Nai. It seems to be something you excell at.
1. You're a Dooku fanboy. Now, if you will look on various other threads - including this one - I frequently tell people when Sidious can be defeated. You, on the otherhand, believe otherwise, that I think Sidious can take all and destroy all. Explain to me THAT, oh mighty Nai.
2. Lol, you don't know. Sidious is superior in the Force against Obi-Wan and Anakin. He's good at "catching people off-guard". He'd outwit Anakin and simply overpower Obi-Wan. Sidious is more powerful than Obi-Wan, and YOU saying otherwise not only does not make sense, but it also shows your true colors and your disgusting little bias. 🙂
3. No, Nai. Count Dooku may be an exceptional duelist - but he lacks his master's Force mastery in full. Tell me where it has been hinted at that Dooku is capable of killing his master? Notice in Dark Rendezvous, Dooku is afraid to betray his master. So obviously, he fears Sidious. I wonder why. Oh...could it be Sidious is more powerful than he is?! Yeah, that might just do it.
4. Sidious's foresight - again, I love how you dodge the fact and try to not admit it that Sidious's ability to forsee the future was better than anyone elses - was greater than Yoda's and Dooku's. No, I NEVER said it was perfect. But Sidious used it to engineer the destruction of the Jedi Order, and takeover the galaxy. Which, I might add, endured all of Sidious's original mistakes and his overall objective was completed. Yoda and the Jedi failed. Sidious ruled, despite the flaws in his foresight. Get over it Nai. In Revenge of The Sith, The SITH (Sidious) won.
Now. I will repeat this again. Sidious DOES lose this duel. I said this EVERY SINGLE TIME. But he could take all three combatants individually and he could take Anakin and Obi-Wan - as a team. Like I said, Count Dooku is the main threat here. He IS almost at Sidious's power, but not quite there. But Obi-Wan and Anakin would serve their purpose. Either as distractions or legitimate threats. But if I had to bet who would land the killing blow, it would be Dooku.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Catching somebody off guard who [b]is already fighting with you is not possible unless he's stupid. The Jedi masters weren't "in combat" same counts for Yoda. Anakin was in combat with Dooku so was Sidious with Mace.
If they were ready to fight him and he didn't surprise them he would have died. [/B]
Then I suppose from your explanation, Yoda is a complete fool. If Sidious did indeed catch him off guard, Yoda is apparently a fool and lacks the intellect to face such an opponent. I'm not saying this, however. You did.
Now. Note that the four Jedi Masters had their lightsabers drawn and ignited. So that means they were prepared for a fight. Now, you make it sound like Sidious flipped over the desk and was IMMEDIATELY on top of them.
When Sidious twirled over his desk, he landed right in front of it - and CHARGED the Jedi. They should've been prepared already, but if they weren't, the time for the charge SHOULD have prepared them enough. So don't give me that catching off guard crap, Nai. You're making excuses.
Sidious owned their asses. He outfought and overpowered them.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
2. Lol, you don't know. Sidious is superior in the Force against Obi-Wan and Anakin. He's good at "catching people off-guard". He'd outwit Anakin and simply overpower Obi-Wan. Sidious is more powerful than Obi-Wan, and YOU saying otherwise not only does not make sense, but it also shows your true colors and your disgusting little bias. 🙂
You still don't get it...and I won't explain it another time.
3. No, Nai. Count Dooku may be an exceptional duelist - but he lacks his master's Force mastery in full. Tell me where it has been hinted at that Dooku is capable of killing his master? Notice in Dark Rendezvous, Dooku is afraid to betray his master. So obviously, he fears Sidious. I wonder why. Oh...could it be Sidious is more powerful than he is?! Yeah, that might just do it.
Mace is able to kill Sidious.
Dooku is better than Mace (force powers / lightsaber skill)
Now tell me again that Dooku can't kill Sidious - this is stupid.
For being close to Sidious when it comes to force powers: Both can use lightning and their lightning power doesn't seem to be different (if so than Dooku has the stronger one - going by what is seen in AOTC and ROTS). Where is your PROOF that Sidious is FAR superior to Dooku in force powers ?
4. Sidious's foresight - again, I love how you dodge the fact and try to not admit it that Sidious's ability to forsee the future was better than anyone elses - was greater than Yoda's and Dooku's. No, I NEVER said it was perfect.
Where ? He planned something. He said what - in his oppinion - will happen and if his plan worked that was "great foresight" ? I'd call that arrogance. Where did we ever see him using "foresight" ?
But Sidious used it to engineer the destruction of the Jedi Order, and takeover the galaxy. Which, I might add, endured all of Sidious's original mistakes and his overall objective was completed. Yoda and the Jedi failed. Sidious ruled, despite the flaws in his foresight. Get over it Nai. In Revenge of The Sith, The SITH (Sidious) won.
He used political manipulation and his planing ability. What has this to do with forsight. If I'm going to throw a stone through a window and tell you "This window will brake in 10 second and then a stone will fall to the ground" just to throw the stone 10 seconds later - do I have a great foresight ability than ?
Now. I will repeat this again. Sidious DOES lose this duel. I said this EVERY SINGLE TIME. But he could take all three combatants individually and he could take Anakin and Obi-Wan - as a team.
He can't neither take Obi-Wan + Anakin (as a team) nor Dooku. Not in a straight fight. And now proof me wrong. You can't - and you can't because we never saw Sidious fighting fair except when he fights Mace which he lost in 30 seconds.
And to get extreme here. Mace defeated Sidious in 30 seconds. That means:
a) Dooku will take Sidious because he is stronger than Mace
b) Anakin will take Sidious because he had defeated Dooku
c) Obi-Wan will take Sidious because he had defeated Anakin
Stupid ? Yes. But well...that's at least kind of "proof" where you have only suggestions.
And buy yourself a cup of logic. Sidious "overpowering" and "outfighting" people ? First off: He killed 3 not 4 Jedi Masters. Number 4 defeated him in less than a minute. Second: Proof that the Jedi were focusing on fighting Sidious. Ups. Third: Proof that they were so much weaker force users / duellists compared to Mace / Yoda that Sidious could simply "overpower" and "outfight" them. Ups.