Define superior intellect.
I'll argue your methods, not the truth. Sidious had SOMETHING over Dooku, that much is implicit. But to say he was neccessarily smarter is unfounded. Manipulation is more wits than direct intelligence. If intelligence itself meant you could manipulate people, I'm sure Stephen Hawkings would get blow jobs from all the world's leaders.
No, I'm not "insinuating" that he's incapable of anything.
I am saying outright that you calling him more intelligent is misleading, as are a majority of your statements about Sidious. Obviously you can't figrue out why you get drawn into these Sidious discussions, but I can tell you it's because you use grandiose and exaggerated words to describe Sidious and you're more often than not very wrong in using them in that context.
And you'll reply something like this:
lol whatever Janus you think Sidious sucks don't you? Next you'll argue he can't use Sith lightning, it's a movie trick.
So please, learn to debate and come back another time.
Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
well if he agrees dooku's got this then why does it matter
I think DS likes to get attention, and since he's a Sidious fanboy and only knows about enough to argue on Sidious related threads, he feels compelled to hog his fifteen seconds of fame by trying to refute everyone else on every little thing.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I think DS likes to get attention, and since he's a Sidious fanboy and only knows about enough to argue on Sidious related threads, he feels compelled to hog his fifteen seconds of fame by trying to refute everyone else on every little thing.
We have just as much knowledge on Dooku as we do on Sidious, as far as combat goes, so while I'm not going to go as far as saying Dooku will beat Sidious, because it's a tossup at best for me, I'm not saying Sidious would own Dooku either. In this matchup, though, Sidious goes down rather easily.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And you, my friend, along with Nai - like to make a point that Sidious sucked, and only his accomplishments are based on luck and catching people off guard. Lol. Pathetic. And you say I'm bad? Use common sense. Lucas sure as hell wouldn't have made Sidious the master if he was so much damn weaker than Dooku. So either he's a hell of a lot more powerful or a hell of a lot smarter. Which do you think? Lemme guess. Neither?
What the hell of a reasoning is that ?
Sidious had to be the master because Dooku was invented 25 years past Sidious. There had to be some logic in the films and guess what - there would be no logic if Sidious would have been killed by Dooku (because Dooku wanted to become the master) in the PT to rule over the Empire in the OT (later) again. There are heavy plot limitations in the PT because of the OT.
- Yoda has to survive
- Anakin has to survive
- Obi-Wan has to survive
- Sidious has to survive
- Dooku had to die (because of the rule of the two)
So where do you get the idea from that Sidious has to be smarter or more powerful compared to Dooku ? He simply is in the PT and the OT because of necessity. What you call common sense is simply bad logic. That is like saying "Obi-Wan is more powerful than all other Jedi except Yoda because he was alive in the OT and all other people were not."
I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.
Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.
Political Manipulation and the Ilk
This came up in many of the arguments, and however unrelated to a duel in-and-of itself, the debate upon which it was started should be concluded.
Sidious needs no introduction, but I'll give one anyway.
He manipulated the entire Jedi Order. Cool. They'd been through a millenium of relative peace, one without the constant Sith threat. Naturally, they were unprepared for such an event. However, that does not take the steam out of his accomplishments. He DID sneak past such Jedi as Yoda, Mace Windu, among others, keeping himself undetected as a Sith Lord for more than a decade, up until the point when he revealed his secret himself. He also manipulated the entire Republic/Imperial Senate into following him in his every course of action. Now, it was a time of war, but he was remarkably successful nonetheless.
Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. He saw the coming darkness, the corruption. He saw the signs of war, of chaos, when the Jedi Council in all their wisdom could not. He alone among all the Jedi discovered the presence of the Sith, and ferreted out Sidious himself. The only reasons in my mind that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious was:
1) To make his dream of a stable, controlled, uncorrupted Galactic government true and solid.
2) After the above was established, he sought to learn the ways of the Sith, who, in his mind, had the right idea.
Now, I'm not really in my mental peak here, so I can't exactly bring up too many other supportive facts for Dooku. I'm positive that there are a couple of others, but I'm sure Janus could put in some of these.
Now, the important things. . .
Dueling Capability
The superior here is somewhat apparent. But what appalls me is the utter disregard for Sidious' skill in itself. Some of you rate Sidious' saber skills so low it's ridiculous.
People, he may not be superior to Dooku, or Yoda, or Mace, for that matter, but he in no way is a poor duelist. He killed three Council-level Jedi Masters in under ten seconds. And nobody say that they weren't ready, that's bull. They were the ones standing there, sabers ignited, ready to bring in the "Chancellor", who they now knew as Darth Sidious, through means of force, if necessary. They may have underestimated him, but no, they weren't completely unprepared.
Now, for the people who think Mace could defeat Sidious; not rwally. Possible? hell yeah, it happened. Likely? Meh. If you want to use that logic, then Sidious WOULD defeat Yoda. Vader WOULD defeat Luke, and vice-versa. Anakin WOULD defeat Dooku. The list goes on and on. . .
Mace won because Sidious, in a completely uncharacteristic turn, underestimated Mace. he believed that he could defeat him as easily as the others. How wrong he was. now, it was Windu's skill that brought him out of the duel as a victor. I will NEVER debate against Mace's skill. Ever. But to say that he would, without a doubt, defeat Sidious, is just stupidity. But, back on topic now.
I personally believe that Dooku is the superior duelist. but not by the ridiculously huge margins that some here imply.
Force Power/Mastery
This is also rather close. In terms of raw power they are probably pretty close. Dooku was, afterall, considered to contain a vast amount of potential. Both Yoda and Mace considered him a terrible loss to the Order. And Sidious is, well, Sidious, the Emperor, Dark Lord, etc., etc. Whatever.
As for mastery, I'd give this to Sidious, but not by anything much. He'd probably studided Sith lore and been under the apprenticeship of Lord Plaguies for the majority of his life, sixty-five years. Now, Dooku was a Jedi for seven decades, along with thirteen years of Sith practice. So he had a fair amount of practice.
Now, I don't know for sure who'd come out on top. I can only make an educated estimate, which at the time is not something that I can give. 🙂 I'll take Illustrious' take on this.
-Sigh- Thanks.
In between all the insults and snide remarks I've received from Nai, Janus, and Illustrious - it's good to see someone not totally bash me for liking Sidious and for sticking up for him. But I know it's your opinion.
See, guys? It's not just me seeing the bias. Count Dooku's awesome. He is my favorite duelist and is a tie for my favorite PT character. But he doesn't outclass Sidious like you say. Faunus has given a more accurate depiction than I - or anyone else - has given out. Simply because he hasn't taken sides at all.
Last time I checked, you called me and Nai and (I think) even Illustrious names for having an opposing view. Remember, you and I didn't start off to well but I decided to start from scratch at one point and met you halfway. Then, another Sidious'related argument starts and you again start with the namecalling. I really haven't attacked your stance so much as your reasoning, and by far Nai Fohl and Illustrious are some of the best debaters and followers of logic in this entire forum, although I'm not saying others haven't made some excellent points (Like Faunus has).
And the point is you always come off half-cocked with your arguments and you tend to go in circles. The person who puts you in the sights of the gun is you, DS. Like Emperor Revan when he gets his mind to it, you tend to go above and beyond the call of duty to defend someone, to the point where both sides begin to deteriorate into name calling and nitpicking. And yes, perhaps things would go easier if everyone agreed to disagree, but if that's to happen, it has to come from all sides and I don't foresee that coming anytime soon.
Now, I have a stance that I share with Nai and Illustrious. And I respect the both of them for having consistant logic and methodical approaches to debating. You, on the otherhand, tend to insult our viewpoints and go around our logic to spark up some other point, and at the very least you could do is say "Well okay, I see how you could see that, but I will still disagree. Thanks for your input." No, you instead act like the bloody victim, like you're Sidious' last chance on this forum and it's your personal honor to defend him against the idea that Dooku could -possibly- be a match for him.
The point boils down to if you don't want to go through it, abstain. But you're just making a big deal over it because quite frankly, I think you enjoy the attention. I don't see you often post on anything that isn't centered around the PT and Anakin/Sidious in particular, and I suspect it's because that's your sole stongpoint. And if you just agree to disagree and don't debate the issue, your presence on this board dwindles to almost nothing, since you (Like Plageus, who thankfully has dropped his antics) must make a stink about Sidious and how he's "disrespected" on this forum.
And what I'm really trying to say is suck it up and deal with it, since you made your reputation on this board based on the way you treat other people and how you debate, not who you like.