Hercules and Thor vs. Juggernaut and Hulk

"thor 412, thor is knocked unconscious by juggernaut and the new warriors keep juggernaut attention while thor recovers"

Yes, he was felling weak for whatever reason it was, Juggernaut grabs the handle of Thor`s hammer when it returns to Thors and uses the momentum to do the ko.

In the next issue he gets defeated by bfr.

in Thor #429, he didnt proved to be stronger either. I recall his helmet been sent flying by Thors punches.

"thor vol. 2 #17, juggernaut beats thor almost to unconscioussness... get this, while not even wanting to fight "

That wasent regular Juggernaut was it. If you want to use amped versions lets use Rune Thor.

Originally posted by olympian
That wasent regular Juggernaut was it. If you want to use amp versions lets use Rune Thor.

amped version of juggernaut??? 8th day juggernaut was regular juggernaut... this is a misconception of the juggernaut... check out uncanny x-men 369 if you want an amped juggernaut. juggernaut was no different in thor 17 except he was hearing the call and paying no attention to thor, where as normally he would have been more into the fight.

"amped version of juggernaut??? 8th day juggernaut was regular juggernaut"

As he was classically presented, no he wasent. Wasent he drawing more power of his source? If you get more than you usually do, your amping yourself. Its the same with Superman and sundipping more from his power source.

Or you call sundipped Superman a regular version too.

Originally posted by olympian
[B] As he was classically presented, no he wasent. [B]

yes he was... the only difference was his mind set. he "had to be somewhere".

Originally posted by olympian
[B]Wasent he drawing more power of his source? If you get more than you usually do, your amping yourself.[B]

where do you draw this conclusion from?? no he wasnt drawing on any more of his power. check out juggernauts appearances in dr. strange, or in his one shot (where somebody else uses the power), or uncanny x-men 369 for juggernaut tapping into his power. 8th day juggernaut was NORMAL juggernaut, his mind was influenced by the call of the 8th day.

Originally posted by olympian
[B] Its the same with Superman and sundipping more from his power source.

Or you call sundipped Superman a regular version too. [B]

no, juggernaut gaining power in this mannor would be him going to the crimson cosmos and drawing energy from it... and i dont read dc comics by the way...

"where do you draw this conclusion from?? no he wasnt drawing on any more of his power. check out juggernauts appearances in dr. strange, or in his one shot (where somebody else uses the power), or uncanny x-men 369 for juggernaut tapping into his power. 8th day juggernaut was NORMAL juggernaut, his mind was influenced by the call of the 8th day".

Tapping -more- of his power.....? Then was he or was he not. Thats what im saying. If you got more on yourself than you usually do, your not on your average level.

Mind influences work the same way. Ill give another DC example. Superman/Eclipso. More ruthless. Doesnt care about anything. Mindless Hulk its the same thing. Hes not that different than a Savage Hulk. But without restraining from banner and his anger, its a boost for the Hulkster.

Onslaught Hulk its another example. Those arent them operating at theyr regular.

"and i dont read dc comics by the way..."

Its ok, i gave other examples.

Originally posted by olympian
Tapping -more- of his power.....? Then was he or was he not. Thats what im saying. If you got more on yourself than you usually do, your not on your average level.

he wasnt tapping into more power in 8th day... he was in dr strange, and juggernaut 1 shot, and uncanny x-men 369. there was no more of "himself" or his power.

Originally posted by olympian
Mind influences work the same way. Ill give another DC example. Superman/Eclipso. More ruthless. Doesnt care about anything. Mindless Hulk its the same thing. Hes not that different than a Savage Hulk. But without restraining from banner and his anger, its a boost for the Hulkster.

ok, once again, juggernaut originally doesnt give a crap... or cain marko should i say. he has no regard for human life, and has killed on panel, ALOT of people. if anything, the different mind set gave THOR the advantage, because juggernaut wasnt trying to fight, he was trying to be somewhere. with no power increase...

"he wasnt tapping into more power in 8th day... he was in dr strange, and juggernaut 1 shot, and uncanny x-men 369. there was no more of "himself" or his power. "

First you say he wasent, then you say he was and now you say he wasent again. If he had an influence outside of his usual self its a boost. Mindset or physical one. And one influences the performance of the other as you know. This has been showed many times.

"ok, once again, juggernaut originally doesnt give a crap... or cain marko should i say. he has no regard for human life, and has killed on panel, ALOT of people. if anything, the different mind set gave THOR the advantage, because juggernaut wasnt trying to fight, he was trying to be somewhere. with no power increase..."

What does that matter? Superman without having a mind influence on him, has killed as well on panel. And he is a boy scout.

Thor didnt had any advantage since he couldnt do anything to that Juggernaut. On regular levels he could. See the difference?

Is Warrior Madness Thor his regular too? Or Mindless Hulk. Or Onslaught Hulk. Hulk has killed on panel with no boosts as well.

Originally posted by olympian

First you say he wasent, then you say he was and now you say he wasent again.

mind quoting me where i said 8th day had a boost??

Originally posted by olympian
If he had an influence outside of his usual self its a boost.

there was no boost in power. juggernaut was "hearing the call". he didnt even know where he was supposed to go, he just knew he had to do something. how is that a power boost?? he was just serving his purpose AS the juggernaut.

Originally posted by olympian
Mindset or physical one. And one influences the performance of the other as you know. This has been showed many times.

what???

Originally posted by olympian
What does that matter? Superman without having a mind influence on him, has killed as well on panel. And he is a boy scout.

what does what matter?? you are saying mind influences are power increases??? lol, no... they are allowing hulk or superman to use thier power without caring for other people. this isnt true for juggernaut cause he never cared in the first place.

Originally posted by olympian
Thor didnt had any advantage since he couldnt do anything to that Juggernaut. On regular levels he could. See the difference?

at regular levels thor NEVER hurt juggernaut... see the difference?? lol, you are crazy...

Originally posted by olympian
Is Warrior Madness Thor his regular too? Or Mindless Hulk. Or Onslaught Hulk. Hulk has killed on panel with no boosts as well.

i didnt say they didnt kill... they just had a reason to. juggernaut just doesnt care, with or without the 8th day. he will kill for no reason any time. there was no difference between 8th day and regular juggernaut excpet the fact that he heard the call of 8th day *hence the name* and the fact that he had to be somewhere. which means he was otherwise preoccupied, or he COULD have did worse to thor. without any power ups... and warrior madness thor is regular thor. there is no reason to think otherwise. he just cares less about his opponents well being. if it increased his strength 10 fold, pretty much all his opponents would be a greasy red smear.

"B] As he was classically presented, no he wasent. [B]

Was there or not a difference between regular Jugs and 8th day Jugs. Did Classic without powerups ever acted like this?

Different mindset for me its a boost. Physical boosts arent the only ones.

"Mindset or physical one. And one influences the performance of the other as you know. This has been showed many times.

what???"

What is difficult to understand? When your mindset its different, you use more of your powers or better the ones you already have. I ask you again. Its mindless Hulk the regular Hulk for you? Warrior Madness Thor? They dont look different. But they - are - different.

"what does what matter?? you are saying mind influences are power increases??? lol, no... they are allowing hulk or superman to use thier power without caring for other people. this isnt true for juggernaut cause he never cared in the first place"

Yes they increase the performance of theyr regular selfs. I know he never cared, then again he never beat Thor like he did in that issue. There has to be a difference. Either that or Thor was depowered.

"at regular levels thor NEVER hurt juggernaut... see the difference?? lol, you are crazy..."

And at regular levels Juggernaut never knocked Thor out unless you count using his hammer momentum against him. Or did what he did in that particular issue.

And he did hurt Juggernaut before, when he "forgot" about his force field being on.

"and warrior madness thor is regular thor. there is no reason to think otherwise. he just cares less about his opponents well being. if it increased his strength 10 fold, pretty much all his opponents would be a greasy red "

...Therefore its not regular level is it. Just seems we have a different reading of what amping means. When someone has a mindset that makes him use the powers better or amp the stats he already has its not regular levels for me. The same way if he only gets amped in stats and not mindset.

Originally posted by olympian
Was there or not a difference between regular Jugs and 8th day Jugs. Did Classic without powerups ever acted like this?

8th day didnt have any POWER UPS... and yes juggernaut acted just like that. except he wasnt hearing the call. and he wasnt trying to be somewhere... but juggernaut still rampaged JUST like in that issue. have you even read it??

Originally posted by olympian
Different mindset for me its a boost. Physical boosts arent the only ones.

how is this a boost in power??? with rune thor, you are talking about an actual power boost. with warrior madness, there is no actual boost in power...

Originally posted by olympian
What is difficult to understand? When your mindset its different, you use more of your powers or better the ones you already have.

no... juggernaut was just trying to be somewhere, instead of following his own agenda, which he usually does. how does that make him more or less powerful?? it changes nothing.

Originally posted by olympian
I ask you again. Its mindless Hulk the regular Hulk for you?

no, but thats a completely DIFFERENT mindset all together that does change hulks physical abilities. juggernauts physical abilities were not altered.

Originally posted by olympian
Warrior Madness Thor? They dont look different. But they - are - different.

the only difference between thor and WM thor, is that thor just doesnt care in WM state. he wouldnt fair any better against mangog regardless. he would still be beaten to a pulp.

Originally posted by olympian
Yes they increase the performance of theyr regular selfs.

so because juggernaut was trying to follow the call and be somewhere, he was better??? because he was trying NOT to fight thor, thor had no advantage??? lol, you are crazy mixed up on juggernaut.

Originally posted by olympian
I know he never cared, then again he never beat Thor like he did in that issue. There has to be a difference. Either that or Thor was depowered.

neither was powered up, nor down. juggernaut has always been immune to thors attacks, and hes always ran right through thor. even in the second bout. no matter what thor did, nothing hurt juggernaut, and thor got beat up regardless...

Originally posted by olympian
And at regular levels Juggernaut never knocked Thor out unless you count using his hammer momentum against him. Or did what he did in that particular issue.

he didnt knock thor out in vol. #17 either... he just walked through his attacks and countered them with his own. JUST LIKE BEFORE.

Originally posted by olympian
And he did hurt Juggernaut before, when he "forgot" about his force field being on.

the force field isnt what makes juggernaut invulnerable...

Originally posted by olympian
...Therefore its not regular level is it.

WM thor IS thor. they are identical in actual power. just one goes lighter on his opponents. if you think WM thor stands any more of a chance against mangog than REGULAR thor, you would be wrong, cause thor already goes all out against oponents who are better than him.

Originally posted by olympian
Just seems we have a different reading of what amping means.

i understand it perfect... if juggernaut operates at a level 8, then amping means any number bigger than 8. but he was still a 8 in 8th day. he just had a different agenda than normal...

Originally posted by olympian
When someone has a mindset that makes him use the powers better or amp the stats he already has its not regular levels for me. The same way if he only gets amped in stats and not mindset.

this is where you are confused 😉 you think just because juggernaut was focusing on something else, besides what is normal that he had more power. which isnt the case.

"8th day didnt have any POWER UPS... and yes juggernaut acted just like that. except he wasnt hearing the call. and he wasnt trying to be somewhere... but juggernaut still rampaged JUST like in that issue. have you even read it??"

Im not talking about stats. There are other kind of boosts that have
influence in someones performance. Did you ever saw Thor pummeled like that? By jugs, with both at full power and with theyr own attacks.

"how is this a boost in power??? with rune thor, you are talking about an actual power boost. with warrior madness, there is no actual boost in power..."

It boosts his performance above what he usually does. Its not a power up ala a outside artifact but it is a boost nothless. Anything that makes you get above what you usually do its a boost. Like the ones i already mentioned.

"no, but thats a completely DIFFERENT mindset all together that does change hulks physical abilities. juggernauts physical abilities were not altered. "

Mindless case was actually simple. Without Banner and a controled level rage he could attain to his limitess strenght ability. This Hulk didnt also had different ablities. What he didnt had was something that -usually- keeps him in check and his strenght.

"he didnt knock thor out in vol. #17 either... he just walked through his attacks and countered them with his own. JUST LIKE BEFORE."

He never walked over Thor like that.

"the force field isnt what makes juggernaut invulnerable..."

No? Then why was he hurt by Thor`s punches. In that case Thor can hurt him even with his durability intact? Seems odd.

"WM thor IS thor. they are identical in actual power. just one goes lighter on his opponents. if you think WM thor stands any more of a chance against mangog than REGULAR thor, you would be wrong, cause thor already goes all out against oponents who are better than him"

It is Thor. Of course it is. Just not its regular way of figthing. Not its reguar self. " Going all out " makes characters figth on a different level than they usually pull off. That being said, yes he would fair better, not winning tho.

"this is where you are confused you think just because juggernaut was focusing on something else, besides what is normal that he had more power. which isnt the case."

Ill re-read the issue when i find it then. But the way Thor was beat seemed definatly out of the usual showings they always had.

Originally posted by olympian
Im not talking about stats. There are other kind of boosts that have
influence in someones performance. Did you ever saw Thor pummeled like that? By jugs, with both at full power and with theyr own attacks.

thor gets pummeled every time... until the one time he depowered juggernaut... a trick that wouldnt work twice cause juggernaut would expect it a second time 😉

Originally posted by olympian
It boosts his performance above what he usually does.

it didnt boost him at all is the thing... he was acting normal, he just had to be somewhere. and thor kept getting in the way. cause juggernaut was rampaging. like always. and he pummeled thor.

Originally posted by olympian
Its not a power up ala a outside artifact but it is a boost nothless.

what was being boosted exactly??? in the juggernaut??? if you can answer that maybe we could get somewhere, cause you are confused... VERY.

Originally posted by olympian
Anything that makes you get above what you usually do its a boost. Like the ones i already mentioned.

nothing was different... nothing was up or down (except thor). but thor has been put on his back in almost every fight with juggernaut...

Originally posted by olympian
Mindless case was actually simple. Without Banner and a controled level rage he could attain to his limitess strenght ability. This Hulk didnt also had different ablities. What he didnt had was something that -usually- keeps him in check and his strenght.

ok, but nothing changed in juggernaut, except he knew he had to be somewhere...

Originally posted by olympian
He never walked over Thor like that.

he always does that to thor. even with the help of the new warriors, thor couldnt do anything to juggernaut. plus all the fights were shorter than #17. that could be why you got to see thor beat up??

Originally posted by olympian
No? Then why was he hurt by Thor`s punches. In that case Thor can hurt him even with his durability intact? Seems odd.

thor could hurt him cause he negated cain markos magic that MADE him the juggernaut. not cause he negated the force field...

Originally posted by olympian
It is Thor. Of course it is. Just not its regular way of figthing.

again, thor has the potential to do that. regular thor that is. but with juggernaut. nothing was different. not even his way of fighting. thor just kept stepping in the way... and juggernaut didnt go all out...

Originally posted by olympian
Ill re-read the issue when i find it then. But the way Thor was beat seemed definatly out of the usual showings they always had.

not really... thor always ended up on the ground or marveling at juggernauts power. why is it different this time??

"thor gets pummeled every time... until the one time he depowered juggernaut... a trick that wouldnt work twice cause juggernaut would expect it a second time "

Having troubles, yes pummeled? No, not for me at least, stalemates are what they end up giving.

"it didnt boost him at all is the thing... he was acting normal, he just had to be somewhere."

Ill re-read it.

"what was being boosted exactly??? in the juggernaut??? if you can answer that maybe we could get somewhere, cause you are confused... VERY."

That example wasent about Juggernaut. The only thing i said here its that a obvious boost ala outside artifacts or drawing more power arent the only kinds. Theres no confusion there.

"he always does that to thor. even with the help of the new warriors, thor couldnt do anything to juggernaut. plus all the fights were shorter than #17. that could be why you got to see thor beat up??"

Except Juggernaut didnt ko Thor before that issue, on its own. He used the opponents hammer momentum for that. They always fough back and forth. " always walking over " its scretching.

"thor could hurt him cause he negated cain markos magic that MADE him the juggernaut. not cause he negated the force field..."

Wich means he didnt had his strenght also, right.

"again, thor has the potential to do that. regular thor that is"

And when he does that, he stops being regular Thor. Thats why we always set up for differences between them. Same for other characters.

"not really... thor always ended up on the ground or marveling at juggernauts power. why is it different this time??"

Being the ground its not what beefs me. Its the actual walking over from the opponent and beating he took without being able to do nothing in return. Wich didnt happened in the previous fights.

In the end he is the one who has resources to lead the win here.

Average showings have all of these rougly equal. About 8th day Jugs ill re-read it when i find it because my first impression was that he had it easier unlike before.

ok, juggernaut routinly beats up thor... such as

this is the result of a backhand... a BACKHAND... juggernaut always beats up thor. this is before any nausea

this is without any power ups, just like 8th day 😉

And where im saying Juggernaut doesnt have the strenght to do that at regular levels? Back and forth i said.

He didnt "owned" him physically in those either, like he did in the issue wer talking about.

Btw your first pic doesnt show totally, just a part.

this is while juggernaut is powered DOWN...

all i'm saying is every time thor steps in the way, he gets beat up, just like in the pictures above, just like in 8th day. juggernaut wasnt powered up, thor was just more persistant in trying to stop him...

and its not back and forth, thor throws everything he has, and juggernaut takes it, and dishs out a pulping to thor... its consistant between these 2.

there are also other pictures of juggernaut landing blows on thor while powered down and still putting him down... just like 8th day. thor is just all over the place when fighting juggernaut. the only time he could harm him is when he depowered juggernaut.