The X-Men vs Thanos

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue Richards getting explained upgrades that are forseeable without going into extreme science and theory, is different to Ice-Man going away, "training" off-panel and gaining Omega level powers.

Come on now.

-AC

this is where I doubt you ever read x-men. from the beginning, iceman was always hinted as having omega level potential. they said it in x-men forever, and that was before he trained. and you can't gain omega-level powers, you are just born with that kind of power.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue Richards getting explained upgrades that are forseeable without going into extreme science and theory, is different to Ice-Man going away, "training" off-panel and gaining Omega level powers.

Come on now.

-AC

Hmm. That IS true.

Except it didn't happen like that. Iceman's upgrades have been steady since 1986 when Loki first boosted his powers. You should know better.

We've been over this.

If you mean the belt he used in X-Factor to "suppress", that's just assumption.

He didn't hint at being an omega, as Stormfront would like to believe. He hinted at being more powerful than he was, fine. I can deal with that. Let the man learn more about his powers and what not. Development is good.

Going off panel and then returning with "I trained" more or less, is stupid. It worked though, because anything works with X-Fans.

-AC

yes he was, he was always hinted as having more potential than he could believe, and having omega-potential. when the term omega came out, he was called one, and after that it he has been said he has always had omega-level potential.

And now we might get into the concept of the retcon. . .

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We've been over this.

If you mean the belt he used in X-Factor to "suppress", that's just assumption.

???
Loki said, "I'm gonna boost your powers! Ta da!" Iceman's powers become so great that he can't control them. He gets a belt to help him out until he doesn't need it anymore, like training wheels. Eventually, after several dozen issues...he didn't need it anymore because he (wait for it!) became skilled enough to handle his new power level.

I missed where the assumption there is. I also missed the off panel "hey, I'm a god" part, too.

He didn't hint at being an omega, as Stormfront would like to believe. He hinted at being more powerful than he was, fine. I can deal with that. Let the man learn more about his powers and what not. Development is good.

Going off panel and then returning with "I trained" more or less, is stupid. It worked though, because anything works with X-Fans.

Except again, that's not how it happened. Mikhail educated him, Emma educated him and Ship educated him. This was all on panel. In fact, Iceman did more on panel training than Sue, whose upgrades amounted to Reed saying, "Hey Sue, try to create a forcefield instead of becoming invisible" "ok...wow, it worked! I'm a powerhouse now!".

Originally posted by demigawd
???
Loki said, "I'm gonna boost your powers! Ta da!" Iceman's powers become so great that he can't control them. He gets a belt to help him out until he doesn't need it anymore, like training wheels. Eventually, after several dozen issues...he didn't need it anymore because he (wait for it!) became skilled enough to handle his new power level.

I missed where the assumption there is. I also missed the off panel "hey, I'm a god" part, too.

Well it didn't happen in any comic I read. Ice-Man went on hiatus and when I saw him return, he had "honed" his powers. Either way, I like to be shown why they deserve these powers, I don't assume they do.

The Loki part proves my point.

Originally posted by demigawd
Except again, that's not how it happened. Mikhail educated him, Emma educated him and Ship educated him. This was all on panel. In fact, Iceman did more on panel training than Sue, whose upgrades amounted to Reed saying, "Hey Sue, try to create a forcefield instead of becoming invisible" "ok...wow, it worked! I'm a powerhouse now!".

Educated him, yes. Where does this mean that he now has the ability to control veins? You can't instantly reach max potential just because someone says you have potential.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well it didn't happen in any comic I read.

Well, don't blame Iceman for that, lol.

Ice-Man went on hiatus and when I saw him return, he had "honed" his powers. Either way, I like to be shown why they deserve these powers, I don't assume they do.

Nah, his power has been developing for a long time. Remember, he started out as a snowman throwing snowballs. He's probably been the most visually progressing of the X-men over the past 40 years. There was never a time he went away and came back with new powers. It was always on panel. Always.

Anyway, what's an example of someone "deserving" their powers? Like, say, Sue.

The Loki part proves my point.

What? Beyonder boosted Kurse, so you're saying Kurse doesn't deserve his powers because of it? What about Loki and the Absorbing Man? Doom and Titania? Aren't you a bit unfair?

Educated him, yes. Where does this mean that he now has the ability to control veins? You can't instantly reach max potential just because someone says you have potential.

Well, (and you're not going to like this), Iceman STILL hasn't reached max potential. He was trained to explore his abilities and he has. Hell, if I were a telekinetic, I don't need that much training, just a lot of imagination to think of millions of ways to apply it. Ditto with Iceman. He doesn't need to train for years to realize that he can freeze veins. He just has to think more imaginatively. I would have thought of that years ago if I had his power. Emma thought of it instantly when he took his body.

Originally posted by demigawd
Nah, his power has been developing for a long time. Remember, he started out as a snowman throwing snowballs. He's probably been the most visually progressing of the X-men over the past 40 years. There was never a time he went away and came back with new powers. It was always on panel. Always.

If he had naturally developed his power to the level of freezing veins, rather than saying he had without any proof, I'd accept that. We were always given reason and situational proof for Ice-Man growing in power. Then one day it came down to "education". I don't buy it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Anyway, what's an example of someone "deserving" their powers? Like, say, Sue.

I'm not saying Ice-Man doesn't deserve them really, because I can foresee his powers evolving into that. I just don't buy how he actually got them. Same with Sue, we were always given reason to believe she could do more with her power and the nature of her power allows it.

Originally posted by demigawd
What? Beyonder boosted Kurse, so you're saying Kurse doesn't deserve his powers because of it? What about Loki and the Absorbing Man? Doom and Titania? Aren't you a bit unfair?

I mean't by you saying "Ta da" and boosting his powers. You obviously read more into my comment. That's more or less how it happened, Emma told him he had potential and educated him, then he reached it. Instead of training to. "You can freeze blood" "Oh yeah, I can."

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, (and you're not going to like this), Iceman STILL hasn't reached max potential. He was trained to explore his abilities and he has. Hell, if I were a telekinetic, I don't need that much training, just a lot of imagination to think of millions of ways to apply it. Ditto with Iceman. He doesn't need to train for years to realize that he can freeze veins. He just has to think more imaginatively. I would have thought of that years ago if I had his power. Emma thought of it instantly when he took his body.

Yes but as I said, potential is one thing, as is having it. If someone tells me I can run as fast as the fastest man ever, or that I have the potential to, I can't automatically do it.

That's my point.

-AC

Can somebody please explain me the purpose of this silly thread ?

Originally posted by who?-kid
Can somebody please explain me the purpose of this silly thread ?

Actually, the purpose was to genuinely see if people loved the X-Men that much.

Apparantly it hasn't come to that yet.

-AC

Originally posted by who?-kid
Can somebody please explain me the purpose of this silly thread ?

To see how far the rabbit hole goes.

Problem wid that?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If he had naturally developed his power to the level of freezing veins, rather than saying he had without any proof, I'd accept that. We were always given reason and situational proof for Ice-Man growing in power. Then one day it came down to "education". I don't buy it.

What would you have preferred? "In issue 304, Iceman struggles to learn how to freeze blood in someone's veins" "In issue 305, Iceman continues to struggle to learn".

Emma demonstrated it for him, he thought, "hmm", and ten issues or so later, he did it....to Emma, no less. I don't find anything unreasonable about that in the slightest. Iceman's is one of the slower and more deliberate power evolutions in comics. It's really the one you should disagree with least.

I'm not saying Ice-Man doesn't deserve them really, because I can foresee his powers evolving into that. I just don't buy how he actually got them. Same with Sue, we were always given reason to believe she could do more with her power and the nature of her power allows it.

???

Wait, so you're saying he DOES deserve it, and you're saying you CAN see his powers evolving into that, right? And I've already clarified how his powers were boosted and he came to control them over years and years, so....are you still of the belief that it's somehow "wrong" or "stupid" that Iceman is a powerhouse?

I mean't by you saying "Ta da" and boosting his powers. You obviously read more into my comment. That's more or less how it happened, Emma told him he had potential and educated him, then he reached it. Instead of training to. "You can freeze blood" "Oh yeah, I can."

Ah, I think I see what you're saying. You have to remember, physical potential doesn't work the same way. Let's go to your example here:

"If someone tells me I can run as fast as the fastest man ever, or that I have the potential to, I can't automatically do it."

Correct, and the reason you can't automatically do it is because you haven't honed your body for it. You are physically incapable of running that fast in your present state. It's not just a mental limitation, it's a physical one.

It's a different example. In Iceman's case (or in the case of most mutant powers), potential is a matter of imagination, not of physical capability. It's less "olympic training" and more "success coaching". Success coaching yields instant results if you can accept the advice. Olympic training is overcoming *physical* as well as *mental* limitations. The former doesn't apply to Iceman, or most other mentally-powered superbeings.

So if you were to use the same logic you're using to complain about Colossus instantly becoming a CL100 character, I'd agree wholeheartedly - it's a physical limitation that he should grow into with hard training and lifting. But mental powers like Iceman's is more about creativity and imagination, and you can get results just by opening your mind. Does that make sense?

Actually, the purpose was to genuinely see if people loved the X-Men that much.

Maybe... or maybe it was time to humiliate the X-Men by letting them face an opponent they just can't beat.

To see how far the rabbit hole goes.

Problem wid that?

Originally posted by who?-kid

Maybe... or maybe it was time to humiliate the X-Men by letting them face an opponent they just can't beat.

Yes. It's stupid, predictable and childish. [/B]

Well, leave the thread then.

I was genuinely interested to see how far the X-Men defenses/arguments go.

That bother you? Couldn't care less.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Maybe... or maybe it was time to humiliate the X-Men by letting them face an opponent they just can't beat.

Wasn't though, was it? No.

Originally posted by demigawd
Iceman's is one of the slower and more deliberate power evolutions in comics. It's really the one you should disagree with least.

I do, as I said. I just have a problem with how he got it. She demonstrated it to him and he did it, rather than working at it.

Originally posted by demigawd
so....are you still of the belief that it's somehow "wrong" or "stupid" that Iceman is a powerhouse?

No, as I've stated. I never really had a problem with the nature of his powers. I can see them evolving into such. I think it was extremely hit, miss and assumptive the way it happened. Using creative licence a bit too much, IMO.

Originally posted by demigawd
Success coaching yields instant results if you can accept the advice. Olympic training is overcoming *physical* as well as *mental* limitations. The former doesn't apply to Iceman, or most other mentally-powered superbeings.

Yes and to overcome mental barriers you need mental training. I never saw Ice-Man working to achieve what he could after Emma teaching him. He came back, as I said, and it was there. It's just a bit out of range. I want to see what he did to get there, how long it took him, what exactly he did to achieve it.

I've never doubted his ability to become what he is, just disagreed with how.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
To see how far the rabbit hole goes.

Problem wid that?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well, leave the thread then.

I was genuinely interested to see how far the X-Men defenses/arguments go.

That bother you? Couldn't care less.

You make it seem like every time someone defends the X-Men it just has to be some delusional fanboy, while all the FF-defenders (or X-haters) are these objectives masterminds who only look at the cold facts.

X-Men are a great team. Fact. Xavier can take out the FF while filling in the crosswords. Fact. X-Men have some heavy hitters. Fact. X-Men loose this fight against Thanos however. Fact. But so do the FF together with Doom. Fact.

Nice try Victor. I'm beginning to see why the FF kicks your ass all the time.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes and to overcome mental barriers you need mental training. I never saw Ice-Man working to achieve what he could after Emma teaching him. He came back, as I said, and it was there. It's just a bit out of range. I want to see what he did to get there, how long it took him, what exactly he did to achieve it.

But if you're ok with Emma taking Iceman's body and reaching near max potential instantly, why wouldn't you be ok with Iceman taking time out to make sense of what Emma did in his body and coming back to her and showing her what he learned after awhile?

And remember, he never went away on panel. IIRC, she took over his body, gave it back to him, then came Operation Zero Tolerance, where Iceman was one of the only remaining free mutants and was one of the chief characters there. It was during that time that he came to learn a lot more about his powers. After OZT was over, he confronted Emma with his new tricks, which he'd developed during OZT, since he was completely on his own. That whole year was basically devoted to Bobby's maturation.

I see it as just a matter of creativity. If I have the ability to move objects with my mind and I happily move plates around and do the dishes without touching anything and someone comes up to me and says, "You know, try projecting your power slighty around your body and you could prevent other people from touching you", I could probably do it after a couple of tries. It's just a new application of the same power. Just like if somebody says, "you know, if you focused, you could lift stuff in other rooms by thinking about it", I would likely be able to do that too fairly quickly, for the same reason. It's less about training in these new applications and more about me simply thinking them up.