The X-Men vs Thanos

Originally posted by who?-kid
What kind of bull is this ? To see "how far the X-Men defenses/arguments go." ?? Like it was up to you to stop this "X-Men nonsense..." ?! This is so arrogant.

You make it seem like every time someone defends the X-Men it just has to be some delusional fanboy, while all the FF-defenders (or X-haters) are these objectives masterminds who only look at the cold facts.

X-Men are a great team. Fact. Xavier can take out the FF while filling in the crosswords. Fact. X-Men have some heavy hitters. Fact. X-Men loose this fight against Thanos however. Fact. But so do the FF together with Doom. Fact.

Nice try Victor. I'm beginning to see why the FF kicks your ass all the time.

Hahaha. Let it all out champ. Feel better? My thread stopped causing you pain now? It's ok.

I wanted to see what arguments would be used against Thanos.

But I'm touched. Like your nerve.

Originally posted by who?-kid

I'm beginning to see why the FF kicks your ass all the time.

Didn't support them in that thread though, but OK. Heal thyself.

Originally posted by demigawd
But if you're ok with Emma taking Iceman's body and reaching near max potential instantly, why wouldn't you be ok with Iceman taking time out to make sense of what Emma did in his body and coming back to her and showing her what he learned after awhile?

That was one of the reasons I didn't buy it. It all seemed to be outside influences. If I had seen him do it and seen him learn it, given reason as to why he became what he did. Cool. I didn't.

Originally posted by demigawd
And remember, he never went away on panel. IIRC, she took over his body, gave it back to him, then came Operation Zero Tolerance, where Iceman was one of the only remaining free mutants and was one of the chief characters there. It was during that time that he came to learn a lot more about his powers. After OZT was over, he confronted Emma with his new tricks, which he'd developed during OZT, since he was completely on his own. That whole year was basically devoted to Bobby's maturation.

But we were only TOLD he developed, I never saw any comic that showed him training mentally or otherwise that resulted in him becoming that powerful. Unless I missed it, in which case I'll put my hand up and say yes, he got where he did fairly.

Originally posted by demigawd
I see it as just a matter of creativity. If I have the ability to move objects with my mind and I happily move plates around and do the dishes without touching anything and someone comes up to me and says, "You know, try projecting your power slighty around your body and you could prevent other people from touching you", I could probably do it after a couple of tries. It's just a new application of the same power. Just like if somebody says, "you know, if you focused, you could lift stuff in other rooms by thinking about it", I would likely be able to do that too fairly quickly, for the same reason. It's less about training in these new applications and more about me simply thinking them up.

Exactly, it's less about explanation and more about blind acceptance really. Not so much in Bobby's case but in others.

The only problem I had with Ice-Man getting those powers is the way he did. If I'm showed how and why he achieved his potential, through what means and what lead to it, I'll agree that it's reasonable. I haven't seen that and I don't recall missing any issues. I remember discussing this with PR1983 and he claimed he didn't happen visually.

Originally posted by who?-kid
You make it seem like every time someone defends the X-Men it just has to be some delusional fanboy, while all the FF-defenders (or X-haters) are these objectives masterminds who only look at the cold facts.

With all due respect, I'll discuss anything with anyone (yes I'm aware you were talking to Victor). I was just discussing Ice-Man with Demigawd. I don't claim everyone who likes X-Men are delusional fanboys, nor does Victor, but the fact that they are plentiful on this forum is undeniable.

The only reason nobody picks up the incredible stupidity and bias of Stormfront is because of who he often happens to be debating against.

X-Men having a great team isn't fact and even if it was, it took them decades riddled with roster changes and writer changes to make them that way. F4 have been the F4 more or less forever.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That was one of the reasons I didn't buy it. It all seemed to be outside influences. If I had seen him do it and seen him learn it, given reason as to why he became what he did. Cool. I didn't.

There were outside influences. Some people quit smoking on their own. Some people try the patch. Some people try support groups. It's not the means, it's the end. Loki amped him...he spent three or four years learning to control it. On panel. Emma showed him his potential. He spent the next year fighting for his life while being hunted by the government, and becoming a tactician as a result. On panel. It can't get any clearer than that why he got to where he is.

In contrast, Human Torch went from being the guy who throws fire to somehow being an atmospheric controller against Gravitron in a single issue. No reason, no cause, he just did. Is that better?

But we were only TOLD he developed, I never saw any comic that showed him training mentally or otherwise that resulted in him becoming that powerful. Unless I missed it, in which case I'll put my hand up and say yes, he got where he did fairly.

Operation Zero Tolerance. Good read.

Exactly, it's less about explanation and more about blind acceptance really. Not so much in Bobby's case but in others.

Then why harp on Bobby? What others?

The only problem I had with Ice-Man getting those powers is the way he did. If I'm showed how and why he achieved his potential, through what means and what lead to it, I'll agree that it's reasonable.

For the last time:

How: Loki powered him up. Why: To **** him up
His powers went out of control
Got a belt to control them
learned to control them (mastery)
How: Mikhail invaded his mind, showed him some tricks. Bobby remembered the tricks Why: Mikhail wanted to unlock the potential in all mutants
How: Emma took over his body, did some tricks. Bobby spent the next year being hunted and forced to use his powers creatively to survive Why: Because he'd be dead if he didn't
How: Ship unlocked more of his potential in X-men forever. He remembered it Why: The Stranger was going to murder the universe and there was no luxury for practice

This was all ON PANEL. The how, the why, the what means. I mean...what more do you want than that? And why is the bar set so much higher for him? Who else has gone through that much in the process of becoming better with their powers? Honestly!

Originally posted by demigawd
There were outside influences. Some people quit smoking on their own. Some people try the patch. Some people try support groups. It's not the means, it's the end. Loki amped him...he spent three or four years learning to control it. On panel. Emma showed him his potential. He spent the next year fighting for his life while being hunted by the government, and becoming a tactician as a result. On panel. It can't get any clearer than that why he got to where he is.

In contrast, Human Torch went from being the guy who throws fire to somehow being an atmospheric controller against Gravitron in a single issue. No reason, no cause, he just did. Is that better?

All the time running from the government and trying to survive would result in an increased sense of survival and tactics as you said. Not the ability to freeze veins.

I'm not condoning it happening to Torch though am I? I can also see his ability being able to be like that and I didn't accept him becoming the powerhouse he did, when he fought Gravitron.

Originally posted by demigawd
Operation Zero Tolerance. Good read.

Pretty sure I read that, will re-read in that case.

Originally posted by demigawd
Then why harp on Bobby? What others?

None that are relevant to this thread. Nor am I harping on Bobby.

Originally posted by demigawd
For the last time:

How: Loki powered him up. Why: To **** him up
His powers went out of control
Got a belt to control them
learned to control them (mastery)
How: Mikhail invaded his mind, showed him some tricks. Bobby remembered the tricks Why: Mikhail wanted to unlock the potential in all mutants
How: Emma took over his body, did some tricks. Bobby spent the next year being hunted and forced to use his powers creatively to survive Why: Because he'd be dead if he didn't
How: Ship unlocked more of his potential in X-men forever. He remembered it
Why: The Stranger was going to murder the universe and there was no luxury for practice

This was all ON PANEL. The how, the why, the what means. I mean...what more do you want than that? And why is the bar set so much higher for him? Who else has gone through that much in the process of becoming better with their powers? Honestly!

Yes, I know all that. I've read those issues.

That is exactly what I'm talking about though. The excuse is that he was shown it and remembered it, then unlocked it. I never saw any transition from being shown, to being master of. Do you see what I mean?

If that transition is in Operation Zero Tolerance and I missed it, I will agree with you wholeheartedly. I just have a problem with, what seems like, a cop out.

It's not unreasonable.

-AC

Can Wolverine come and save the day?

all right, if everyone is in agreement that thanos would stomp these guys (i'd thought with bobby's new powers they could actually give him a fight at least, but i've not read current xmen for quite some time), who would be the last xman standing?

Atomised/ionised:

Reconstituted:

Visual enough for you AC?

For the record everyone sees stormfront's obvious bias.

Thanos would still win.

Wolverine can't help because he's too busy dealing with the omniversal threat that is Jubilee Prime.

Nah he gutted Jubilee prime before she even knew he was there.....

**** the x-men colossus is a true powerhouse i am sure he could take thanos by himself....he can lift like 100 tons....one punch and thanos is history....and with his new healing upgrades colossus is more dangerous then ever this days

If Jean is pre-ultimate/secondary/whatever the f*** you call it/ mutation then Thanos schools them.

If Jean is post-ultimate/secondary/whatever the f*** you call it/ mutation then Jean kicks the crap out of Thanos.

Originally posted by colossus17
**** the x-men colossus is a true powerhouse i am sure he could take thanos by himself....he can lift like 100 tons....one punch and thanos is history....and with his new healing upgrades colossus is more dangerous then ever this days

See, while I was keen to see X-Men based arguments as to why they might have a chance here, wasn't actually looking for fanboyism.

I'm still gonna reserve my judgement for the comic, X. I appreciate your input though, thanks for the evidence. Genuinely.

-AC

That image just shows Drake's POTENTIAL. In an alternate universe.

616 Iceman is still p***yfooting around with his powers.

Originally posted by colossus17
**** the x-men colossus is a true powerhouse i am sure he could take thanos by himself....he can lift like 100 tons....one punch and thanos is history....and with his new healing upgrades colossus is more dangerous then ever this days

Don't doubt the power of Colossus Prime. 😂

His power is nothing like precrisis wolverine...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All the time running from the government and trying to survive would result in an increased sense of survival and tactics as you said. Not the ability to freeze veins.

Freezing veins = tactic. It's not a new power, it's the tactical application of an existing power. It's like aspirin. You know how to use aspirin. Sure, you can take it for a headache. But did you know you could use it to soothe a bee sting? Seriously, rub it on your arm. It didn't require any training, right? It's just taking what you already know and applying it differently. Iceman already knows how to freeze things. It's what he does best. All he did was realize that he could do it to things that aren't in his line of sight just by visualizing it. Like objects in another room. Or, organs inside your body. I don't see it requring an entire issue of training to figure that out. Hell, I would have figured that out day one.

I'm not condoning it happening to Torch though am I? I can also see his ability being able to be like that and I didn't accept him becoming the powerhouse he did, when he fought Gravitron.

Well, at least I'm glad to hear that you're not limiting this to X-men. It's a comicbook thing, not an X-men thing. "Hulk CFC emulsifier" anyone?

That is exactly what I'm talking about though. The excuse is that he was shown it and remembered it, then unlocked it. I never saw any transition from being shown, to being master of. Do you see what I mean?

But freezing the blood in someone isn't a "master" skill. As I mentioned above, it's just a re-application of what you already know. It's nothing that would require endless training by Bobby. He knows how to freeze stuff, now he's just being creative about what he freezes. That's all of about 20 minutes of practice.

I think that we agree that this goes beyond simply X-men in general and Bobby in particular (since Torch is a far more egregious example), and that Bobby's evolution was as sensible as you can expect in a ensemble comicbook, so there's not much point in me debating any further points.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's like aspirin. You know how to use aspirin. Sure, you can take it for a headache. But did you know you could use it to soothe a bee sting? Seriously, rub it on your arm. It didn't require any training, right? It's just taking what you already know and applying it differently. Iceman already knows how to freeze things. It's what he does best. All he did was realize that he could do it to things that aren't in his line of sight just by visualizing it. Like objects in another room. Or, organs inside your body.

That's a slight stretch though isn't it?

Freezing things 'not in your line of sight'...rubbing an aspirin on your arm.

Not quite the same leap in application.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
That's a slight stretch though isn't it?

Freezing things 'not in your line of sight'...rubbing an aspirin on your arm.

Not quite the same leap in application.

More potential medical uses for aspirin are still under study--everything from treating migraines and colon, ovarian and breast cancer to improving brain function. Could an aspirin a day help you retain your memory as you age by preventing clogging of the arteries in the brain? It remains to be proven, but early studies suggest it's possible.

How about one of these others?