Originally posted by Illustrious
Well, the issue is that Kreia's statement to the effect of the Ancient Sith make it seem like the KotOR era individuals are children playing with toys would apply to Revan. So by this, we can assume, provided Kreia is a reputable source, that Tulak is superior to Revan in terms of swordfighting/lightsaber wielding. Now, if you want to assume Mace has more developed swordsmanship than Tulak, then logic dictates he would also be superior to Revan.
Yeah. In swordsmanship which - as far as we know - doesn't determine the outcome of a fight. You can say that Dooku using the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat is superior to Yoda in swordmanship but he still can't beat Yoda. Other examples would be:
Luke vs Vader (ROTJ)
Sidious vs Yoda (ROTS)
However, the primarily fallacy of this argument is that as lightsaber techniques get developed, that they are necessarily superior. You have to assume, that with the movement towards blasters and away from lightsabers (just as how Makashi is becoming less prolific) that just as much is lost as is gained.
As you realized I never said that more developed techniques would be necessarily superior. But:
a)
It's more likely that the very same technique practiced over another 4 millenia would be either not developed or developed in a way that would make it better.
b)
Juyo is said to be the harderst form to master now Vaapad is even harder and now I'm asking myself why. And least what Mace does with his fighting style is quite impressive. So is Dooku.
c)
Can you imagine a lightsaber duellist that would make Yoda look like a child ? Erm...
It would effectively be trying to compare an army veteran to an Ancient Spartan in swordsmanship, the emphasis is not on waving a sharp, pointy gladius anymore.
No...it won't. See...it would be like comparing people that lived under a certain code and used certain weapons with people that use the same code and the same weapons 4,000 years later - something that never happened in the history of mankind.
We simply don't know how lightsaber combat developed at least we can't tell how much better Tulak Hord would be compared to Yoda but we can see that "making Yoda look like a child" is pretty much not possible.
Now we know that Yoda can avoid hits from three Jedi Master attacking him simultaneously - can he avoid Tulak Hord ? Probably yes. Can Hord defend against Sidious and Yoda at once - I doubt it.
Yeah. In swordsmanship which - as far as we know - doesn't determine the outcome of a fight. You can say that Dooku using the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat is superior to Yoda in swordmanship but he still can't beat Yoda. Other examples would be:Luke vs Vader (ROTJ)
Sidious vs Yoda (ROTS)
No, swordsmanship doesn't determine the outcome of a fight, but neither do force powers, or terrain. They do, however, make it more likely for said individual to win. As you see Dooku has superior swordsmanship than Obi-Wan, hence he is able to consistently beat him. Does that mean if they fight for a million times, that Obi-Wan can't squeek out a victory? No. But the odds are against him.
Better swordsmanship, as a rule, increases your chance of winning a confrontation involving... what else? lightsabers.
a)
It's more likely that the very same technique practiced over another 4 millenia would be either not developed or developed in a way that would make it better.
That's not necessarily true. No one individual survived for those 4 millenia, so the technique is constantly being relearned by new individuals.
Makashi is one of the oldest techniques, and it is still the best technique in lightsaber combat. This indicates that as new develops are made, they aren't necessarily more powerful, but more practical.
b)
Juyo is said to be the harderst form to master now Vaapad is even harder and now I'm asking myself why. And least what Mace does with his fighting style is quite impressive. So is Dooku.
True, but difficulty in mastering it doesn't necessarily mean the individual that has mastered it is superior. Is it likely that Vaapad/Juyo is superior to the form Tulak used, sure, but does that mean, inherently, that Mace is better than Tulak? No.
If I am marginally good with a gun, and I go up against someone who is ridiculously good with a Longbow, chance are, I still would die even though my weaponry is superior.
c)
Can you imagine a lightsaber duellist that would make Yoda look like a child ? Erm...
Sure, the little green guy does it himself. Damn his small stature!
No...it won't. See...it would be like comparing people that lived under a certain code and used certain weapons with people that use the same code and the same weapons 4,000 years later - something that never happened in the history of mankind.
Sure it has, just not in the written era. People have used stone age or bronze age weapons for 4 millenia before, and in all likelihood, very little progression has been made. You said it yourself, they are using the same kind of weapon, chances are the refinement has not been so radical as to require something completely different.
We simply don't know how lightsaber combat developed at least we can't tell how much better Tulak Hord would be compared to Yoda but we can see that "making Yoda look like a child" is pretty much not possible.
Unless Yoda is leagues ahead of Revan, making Revan look like a child is pretty difficult too. But Kreia's statement, at the time of its issue, also applied to Revan.
Now we know that Yoda can avoid hits from three Jedi Master attacking him simultaneously - can he avoid Tulak Hord ? Probably yes. Can Hord defend against Sidious and Yoda at once - I doubt it.
The issue is that we don't know for sure. You have martial arts experience, you should know that against two individuals with weapons is NOT the same as taking 1 individual with a weapon and multiplying it by 2. The way they mesh together would not be flawless. Tulak is a Dark Lord of the Sith in a time when powerful duelists were relatively common, or as can be assumed (considering he has a tomb).
I'm not saying he would be able to beat Sidious and Yoda; I'm just saying ruling that out as a possibility seems premature.
I'd like to add one thing; Kreia's words cannot be taken just as they are. She tends to exaggerate for the sake of making a valid point. Tulak Hord wouldn't really make Revan, or Malak, or anyone else, look like a child, atleast not entirely. The wording is simply to express her regared and respect for the skill of the Ancients. Call her the master of Overstatement. . .