Originally posted by Dark Nemesis
Nai, you want to explain to me how ragnos can NOT keep up with Yoda, but Count Dooku and Darth Sidious can? (Both at point blank range?)
Where could Dooku and Sidious keep up with Yoda ? Really Janus...after having rewatched the AotC duel Yoda vs Dooku three times picture by picture and all fighting scenes of Yoda in ROTS for I-don't-know-how-many-times (I might mention that my uncle owns a cinema before somebody is labeling me a movie pirate) I've realised two things:
- Yoda owned everybody in lightsaber combat
- Yoda owned everybody in force combat
Just to get more on detail here. I think some people here are underestimating Sidious after I did watch ROTS again today and realised the following thing: In that fight with Sidious in the Senate chamber when Sidious is throwing those "pods" at Yoda you can see that Sidious isn't really concentrating on that pods he just moves his hands up and down and they come flying but now the important point for me: While he throws the pods from the one side you can see that that there are three other pods flying (not falling down) just above Yoda when Yoda jumps over the pods. So either Sidious can easily levitate 3 of that things while throwing three others around (keep in mind that these things have some weight) or Yoda kept them up there while jumping around - so one of the two has to be more powerful than I personaly thought (most likely Sidious because there is no need for Yoda to levitate those things and not throwing them at Sidious).
And now Yoda is clearly blasting Sidious away when Sidious is using lightning at him. It looked like Yoda had problems there (he looks away from the lightning) but when he looks back he is CLEARLY superior to Sidious (and you can see that Sidious knows it) before they are both blasted off that pod.
Just to add something here: Yoda falls down more than 20 metres, hits another pod is still able to try to hold onto it and then drops down another 20 metres minimum just to be back on his feet after less than 10 seconds and escape from that chamber. Well...he can take some serious beating to his body if he's able to do that.
And please mind the fact that I only said that Ragnos might not be able to defend against Yoda because he's using a sword that is quite hard to handle FAST not because he's lacking duelling skill or force powers !
Could you also spew some more nonsense with numbers and assumptions on no-name jedi?
Sorry...where did I spew "nonsense" and assumptions here ? You're talking about nonsense and assumptions like "HK-47 can kill a Jedi Knight in frontal combat" despite the fact that we saw an Astromech droid (!) destroying 3 copies of HK-47 at once ?
Oh...wait...Ragnos and the droids are doomed anyway because R2-D2 is inside the tempel and will listen to Anakin's commands thereby Ragnos and the droids are obliterated in the second they enter.
Really...I don't see any reason to make the fur fly because of a thread like this.
Now the HK-47 droids. 60 of them are enough to destroy all Jedi in the temple ?
Used properly, yes. In conjunction with the mighty Ragnos, yes. 300 Spartans held back a Persian army of over a million men. Don't argue to me numbers.
Just let me do little bit of a numbers game. In AotC you can see Yoda teaching younglings - there are 15 of them and they all have the same age. Now let's just assume that they have the same amount of younglings every year (15) later becoming Padawans and then Jedi-Knights. So...
See where this is going? You're going off in left field to get unverified numbers based on a headcount in a few scenes of the movie and suddenly turning it into a database which you claim is worthwhile. This IS numerical nonsense.
You would have:
90 Younglings (age 7-13)
165 Padawans (age 14-25)
585 Jedi Knights or Masters (age 26-65)
The Council (12 Masters) + serveral other Masters on Council level (e.g. Cin Dralling)
Again, a database made off of a wild assumption based on a few scenes from AOTC. Why should this matter?
Now let's assume that all Niman practioners are quite useless in this battle. We know that 200 Jedi were present during the attack on Geonosis and all Niman practioners died - 19 people survived so 10 % of the Jedi seem to practice other forms than Niman (at least).
This is called leaping to conclusions. You somehow got 10% as a figure of jedi that DON'T practice Niman from the death total at Geonosis. This is ridiculous. If anything, it's MORE likely that the majority of jedi practice Niman since it's a lightsaber style that is eary to apply and allows for more time for noncombat learning techniques. hence the term "Diplomat's Form". Unless you have some statement from a novel or Visual dictionary stating that only the jedi at Geonosis used Niman and the others used other styles, this isn't very sound. And in any case, jedi have proven to be pretty ineffectual against a hail of gunfire. Even in Medstar, where Luminara discusses Soresu with Barriss, she notes that it's impossible to deflect two blaster bolt shots at once fired from different directions, even with Soresu mastery. If you have sixty HK droids (droids noted for precision aiming and jedi killing training) or even a portion of that in tight formation in a hallway, you can destroy opposition quite easily. Actually, I want you to tell me how Anakin Skywalker and some clone troopers took over the jedi temple and yet Ragnos and sixty Hk droids could not? Care to answer that one for me?
The younglings are ALL practioning Form I
Add 16,5 (17) Padawans not practioning Form VI
Add 58,5 (59) people with a Knight or Master status that don't practice form VI
Add the council.
And the younglings are cannon fodder at best. Average jedi knights are not very exceptional at this kind of thing. Look at Geonosis. Look at most other battlefields. Look at the jedi masters. Obviously Anakin and his goons could kill the likes of Cin Drallig, Shaak Ti, etc. Sidious can pwn three masters in one breath. The only decent jedi here are the big four, and they can't hold off the horde and destroy Ragnos. Not under these conditions and not likely at all, really.
Now for the sake of an argument let's assume the following things: forms I, II and VII seem to be very, very uncommon in the order. So most likely the people left (except the Younglings) will practice forms III, IV and V. That results in:
Why assume their fighting styles? This is tactics. If you want to do as you have done and take something from the movie and make a ratio from it, let's take AOTC: 200 and some jedi. One practitioner of Ataru, one of Shien/Djem So, three of Soresu, one of Shii-Cho, one of Juyo/Vaapad, the rest Niman. Take that ratio and work with it.
Younglings: 90 Form I praticioners
Padawans: 6 form III, 6 form IV, 5 form VI
Knights: 20 form III, 20 form IV, 19 form VI
Like I said, you can have a million men, and if you're going up against three hundred tenacious, intelligent Spartans, your lines will break and you will falter. Numbers do not equate victory. If they did, the jedi could never defeat the droids, since they numbered in the millions on any given day.
So if the council attacks Ragnos there are 166 "effective" fighters left to take on the droids - while the younglings might be no real threat they still can deflect blaster fire. The 17 Padawans and the 59 Knights might be able to take on the droids at least the form III and form V practioneers will most likely not get killed through blasterfire - so the droids will be destroyed here.
And if Ragnos is supporting the droids with immense Force powers... how are younglings or even jedi knights going to make any kind of leeway while being hailed with blaster fire and possible assorted droid firearms? Hell, stun shots aren't reflected by lightsabers (See Shatterpoint), so a group of sixty HKs with stun shots can take out a whole wave of jedi and quite quickly. Hell, half of their numbers could stun the jedi and the other half fire, just like the minutemen tactics of the American Revolutionary War. Two lines of fire, one to break the line, the other to lay down the kill.
I don't want the fur to fly either, Nai. But honestly, if you think I'm gonna just sit back and let this pass for reason, you obviously don't think much of me.
Originally posted by Dark Nemesis
Used properly, yes. In conjunction with the mighty Ragnos, yes. 300 Spartans held back a Persian army of over a million men. Don't argue to me numbers.
Using HK droids "properly" doesn't mean throwing them into frontal action. They are assasination droids NOT battle droids.
See where this is going? You're going off in left field to get unverified numbers based on a headcount in a few scenes of the movie and suddenly turning it into a database which you claim is worthwhile. This IS numerical nonsense.Again, a database made off of a wild assumption based on a few scenes from AOTC. Why should this matter?
Because this is the worst case scenario for the Jedi. In fact they have thousands of planets each of them having millions or billions of inhabitants to recruit Younglings from. If you count my number you have less than 900 force users. And you are still going to say this is too much ?
This is called leaping to conclusions. You somehow got 10% as a figure of jedi that DON'T practice Niman from the death total at Geonosis. This is ridiculous. If anything, it's MORE likely that the majority of jedi practice Niman since it's a lightsaber style that is eary to apply and allows for more time for noncombat learning techniques. hence the term "Diplomat's Form". Unless you have some statement from a novel or Visual dictionary stating that only the jedi at Geonosis used Niman and the others used other styles, this isn't very sound. And in any case, jedi have proven to be pretty ineffectual against a hail of gunfire. Even in Medstar, where Luminara discusses Soresu with Barriss, she notes that it's impossible to deflect two blaster bolt shots at once fired from different directions, even with Soresu mastery.
The Jedi at Geonosis are a mix of all available Jedi at that point. So if there were 200 of them and all Niman praticioners died leaving 20 people standing around there is most likely to say that 10 % of the Jedi didn't practice Niman. And I can turn that the other way around keeping the fact in mind that none of the council members did practice Niman and assume that most people in the order didn't practice Niman because they once want to become council members.
And sorry...Yoda is deflecting at least 3 blaster bolt shots at once in ROTS so I have to say that the EU contradicts the movies in this case.
If you have sixty HK droids (droids noted for precision aiming and jedi killing training) or even a portion of that in tight formation in a hallway, you can destroy opposition quite easily. Actually, I want you to tell me how Anakin Skywalker and some clone troopers took over the jedi temple and yet Ragnos and sixty Hk droids could not? Care to answer that one for me?
Sure. This isn't the temple that is shown in RotS.
a) Thread says that all Jedi that existed in the PT (or at least ROTS) are in this temple and that are far more that were in there in ROTS (see that the nearly the entire council wasn't present at that time and many Jedi were killed during the clone wars). Now ask yourself if Anakin would have been able to take over the temple with the entire council (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan) in it. I don't think so.
b) Anakin had at least 150 clone troopers with him (that can be seen when they approached the temple - there are at least 3 units of 50 clone troopers moving behind him) and still you have some of the troopers dieing during that assault.
And the younglings are cannon fodder at best. Average jedi knights are not very exceptional at this kind of thing. Look at Geonosis. Look at most other battlefields. Look at the jedi masters. Obviously Anakin and his goons could kill the likes of Cin Drallig, Shaak Ti, etc. Sidious can pwn three masters in one breath. The only decent jedi here are the big four, and they can't hold off the horde and destroy Ragnos. Not under these conditions and not likely at all, really.
As I said...the Jedi on Geonosis were badly outnumbered and in the case as stated Ragnos and the droids are horribly outnumbered (10 on 1 ? 20 on 1 ? 50 on 1 ?)
Why assume their fighting styles? This is tactics. If you want to do as you have done and take something from the movie and make a ratio from it, let's take AOTC: 200 and some jedi. One practitioner of Ataru, one of Shien/Djem So, three of Soresu, one of Shii-Cho, one of Juyo/Vaapad, the rest Niman. Take that ratio and work with it.
200 Jedi...none of the Niman praticioners did survive.
Still alive after the battle:
Ki-Adi-Mundi (form V)
Kit Fisto (form I)
Stass Allie (form I)
Mace Windu (form VII)
Sora Bulq (form VII)
Obi-Wan (form III)
Plo Koon (form V)
Agen Kolar
Aayla Secura (form V)
Yoda (form IV)
Quinlan Vos
Luminara (form III)
Saesee Tiin
Shaak Ti
So I count...
Form I: 2 people
Form II: none
Form III: 2 (who is the third ?)
Form IV: 1
Form V: 3
Form VI: none (due to my informations) - 10 at max
Form VII: 2
Do you really want me to use that numbers ? 200 people = 100 %, 20 survivors = 10 % (2 people = 1 %) that is: 1 % form 1, 1 % form III, 0,5 % form IV, 1,5 % form V, 1 % form VII (no form II praticioners and Niman doesn't count).
Applied on the numbers I mentioned (which are far below the real number) you would have
Younglings: 90 all form I praticioners
Padawans: 2 form I, 2 form III, 1 form IV, 3 form V, 2 form VII
Jedi Knights: 6 form I, 6 form III, 3 form IV, 9 form V, 6 form VII
= 130 people that don't practice form VI
Now you can add the masters which would (all PT Jedi) be 22 people on Council level and people like Qui-Gon, Dooku and Cin Dralling who are considered to be "council level".
Oh great...155 people left instead of 166...
Like I said, you can have a million men, and if you're going up against three hundred tenacious, intelligent Spartans, your lines will break and you will falter. Numbers do not equate victory. If they did, the jedi could never defeat the droids, since they numbered in the millions on any given day.
Oh great...now the HK-47 droids are easily more skillfull than average Jedi still despite of the fact that an Astromech droid destroyed 3 copies of HK-47 at once.
And you really gonna throw the "Battle of Thermopylae" into an argument with somebody that studies history ? First off that battle is more a legend than actual history but let's (just for the fun of it) assume it happened.
There were 300 Spartan warriors (known to be the most skilled warriors in the antique) defending a bottleneck between the Kallimdromos mountains and the "Gol of Malia". Here is a picture of that bottleneck:
Now you have 300 of the most skilled warriors of that time placed at the end and at the sides of a bottleneck that can be passed by 10 - 20 people at one time (maximum). Only footsoldiers and none of them had effective range weapons. Great...sure they could defend that thing but in fact this has NOTHING in common with Ragnos + HK droids walking into the Jedi temple unless you want to tell me that all lightsabers are locked in a single room and Ragnos + the HK droids are guarding the only door that leads into it.
And if I might remind you: At the end the Spartans were all lying dead on the ground.
And if Ragnos is supporting the droids with immense Force powers... how are younglings or even jedi knights going to make any kind of leeway while being hailed with blaster fire and possible assorted droid firearms?
How is Ragnos and fire from 60 droids gonna stop serveral thousand force users aimed with lightsabers ?
Hell, stun shots aren't reflected by lightsabers (See Shatterpoint), so a group of sixty HKs with stun shots can take out a whole wave of jedi and quite quickly. Hell, half of their numbers could stun the jedi and the other half fire, just like the minutemen tactics of the American Revolutionary War. Two lines of fire, one to break the line, the other to lay down the kill.
30-60 stun shots + 30 blaster shots + Ragnos > serveral thousand force users ? Hmm...did you ever see a HK droid using a weapon that stuns the target ?
I don't want the fur to fly either, Nai. But honestly, if you think I'm gonna just sit back and let this pass for reason, you obviously don't think much of me.
I didn't think you're just gonna sit back. But I don't see Ragnos + a bunch of assisination droids destroying the entire PT Jedi Order...
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Hahaha. Nai is completly right on this.
Glentract, you really are annoying when it comes to these kinds of debates.
Nai, I'm willing to give you props for coming back strong. I don't agree with you, really. I don't think it's likely to change one way or another. But before Glentract over here chortles and gets his sippy cup juice all over his keyboard, don't consider this a win for the opposing team. I've already put forth a lot of effort into this thread. So has nearly everyone (with the exception of you, Glentract. You went from being a cool guy and someone who had a good grasp of SW knowledge to some totally annoying little brat who rides on everyone else's coattails. I sometimes wonder if you are even the same person that was here even a month ago)
Honestly, this thread is a terrible one to be debating, but hell. I did anyway. We all did. Nai, nice comeback. I don't see eye to eye with you, but good job nonetheless. And very touche with the pic. But I did know all the specifics of the battle. I was rather banking on the emphasis of the statement and not so much on the exact analogy approach.
Originally posted by Dark Nemesis
Nai, I'm willing to give you props for coming back strong. I don't agree with you, really. I don't think it's likely to change one way or another.
Well...the problem with this threat is that the "specifications" are somewhat messed up.
At first it was "Ragnos + Droids vs the temple" - thinking of ROTS Ragnos would have done that alone.
Then it changed to "Ragnos + Droids vs the temple filled with all PT Jedi" and this is getting ugly because:
a)
Wikipedia alone lists 50 PT Jedi including heavy people like Mace, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Deepa Billaba and Sora Bulq who might all be able to take down serveral HK droids on their own.
b)
We don't know how many Jedi there are. It could be 1,000 or 10,000 or even 100,000 if we have a look at the possible potential for recruiting (serveral thousand star systems and there are planets having more than one Jedi in the order...Corellia with Stass Allie and Adi Gilia, Iridonia with Eeth Koth and Agen Kolar) - that can result in millions of Jedi.
Honestly, this thread is a terrible one to be debating, but hell. I did anyway. We all did. Nai, nice comeback. I don't see eye to eye with you, but good job nonetheless. And very touche with the pic. But I did know all the specifics of the battle. I was rather banking on the emphasis of the statement and not so much on the exact analogy approach.
Yes that thread is a terrible one for debating. Still nice points on both sides but I still don't get the idea that a HK-47 droid would be able to defeat an average Jedi in a "normal" fight. 😛
"Used properly, yes. In conjunction with the mighty Ragnos, yes. 300 Spartans held back a Persian army of over a million men. Don't argue to me numbers."
the difference is that the spartans were stronger than the persians, but you really cant argue that a hk droid is stronger than a jedi. It would take about 5 hk droids to kill a padawan. How the hell can you say that 70 of them will kill all of the jedi without ragnos anyway.
And sniper fire can be blocked by a lightsaber, extremely difficult to redirect but it can be blocked. Now i cant be arsed to give big long speeches like nai here but i was never actually argueing that sidious or mace would be able to beat ragnos. hell Ragnos might possibly be able to destroy the entire council but all of the other jedi would be added support to them. As i said before i think 30 jedi tops would get killed by hk 50s and once all of the hk 50s are dead i reckon there will be about 9,500 jedi left. Now the prominent members of the council such as mace, yoda, kenobi and others could easily approach ragnos to duel with him. About 10 other jedi could be rady to force push him. 10 other to throw boulders and rubble onto him. 10 other jedi using other force powers such as saber throw etc. probably ten more at this given situation could be superspeeding towards him ready to engage him. Ragnos is not powerful enough to deal with this. He would find it inredibly difficult to destroy all these jedi and even if he does that was just 1 wave. there are plenty more jedi that could do the same as that.
Originally posted by birthoftheforce
Now i cant be arsed to give big long speeches like nai here...
🤨
Now the prominent members of the council such as mace, yoda, kenobi and others could easily approach ragnos to duel with him. About 10 other jedi could be rady to force push him. 10 other to throw boulders and rubble onto him. 10 other jedi using other force powers such as saber throw etc. probably ten more at this given situation could be superspeeding towards him ready to engage him. Ragnos is not powerful enough to deal with this. He would find it inredibly difficult to destroy all these jedi and even if he does that was just 1 wave. there are plenty more jedi that could do the same as that.
a)
There is no way for more than 4 or 6 people to fight Ragnos at once - no matter how you do it. In fact Yoda alone needs so much space to use his swordfigthing style that another Jedi would just be in his way.
b)
10 Jedi force push him while he is fighting other Jedi - great idea...
c)
10 Jedi throwing stuff at him while he's fighting other Jedi and being force pushed - even greater idea.
d)
10 Jedi throwing their lightsabers through fellow Jedi who are together with Ragnos force pushed around while other people throwing stuff at them ?
e)
Do you think there would be Jedi dumb or crazy enough to charge this big pile of BS with force speed ?
Really...if the 4 - 6 most powerful individuals around (of all PT Jedi most likely: Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Anakin and another person of your choice) aren't able to kill Ragnos - and they most likely will be able to do that - the other people can only do worse and that means getting killed too.
a)
There is no way for more than 4 or 6 people to fight Ragnos at once - no matter how you do it. In fact Yoda alone needs so much space to use his swordfigthing style that another Jedi would just be in his way.
b)
10 Jedi force push him while he is fighting other Jedi - great idea...
c)
10 Jedi throwing stuff at him while he's fighting other Jedi and being force pushed - even greater idea.
d)
10 Jedi throwing their lightsabers through fellow Jedi who are together with Ragnos force pushed around while other people throwing stuff at them ?
e)
Do you think there would be Jedi dumb or crazy enough to charge this big pile of BS with force speed ?
Really...if the 4 - 6 most powerful individuals around (of all PT Jedi most likely: Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Anakin and another person of your choice) aren't able to kill Ragnos - and they most likely will be able to do that - the other people can only do worse and that means getting killed too.
That is what you said nai.
a) More than 4 or 6 jedi would be able to attack ragnos at once. They wouldn't all be standing next to him. About 30 would easily be able to stand back and use these force techniques and when this occurs im not talkin about a single tiny room here, im talkin about a big hall (and do say that not every room is like the hall of moria because i know that but there are still plenty as big).
b),c) and d). the jedi have way better concentration than that and would not make the mistake of friendly fire. They have been training all of their life and would have enough concentration to be incredibly accurate. now the jedi aren't exactly going to arrange themselves in a way that they are blocking people's views. they will allow every other jedi a clear line of sight towards ragnos and its not as if the jedi have to do these force powers directly at ragnos. the rubble being thrown for example could be coming from above.
e) jedi are trained to be brave and they know their duty and therefor would not even hesitate to attack ragnos in the best way that they can. Also the other added jedi are not exactly going to be a hindrence to yoda and the other masters and i will explain why. If the other jedi attack Ragnos aswell as the prominent members of the council then ragnos will have to defend against pretty much every main lightsaber form other than makashi. Ragnos will have to defend against different styles of lightsaber combat, different parts of his body being attacked and all of the other jedis' force powers. ragnos would not stand a chance
Originally posted by birthoftheforce
a) More than 4 or 6 jedi would be able to attack ragnos at once. They wouldn't all be standing next to him. About 30 would easily be able to stand back and use these force techniques and when this occurs im not talkin about a single tiny room here, im talkin about a big hall (and do say that not every room is like the hall of moria because i know that but there are still plenty as big).
If some people are fighting him with lightsabers than they WILL in fact be moving very close to him. So force push will push him into other (Jedi) people. Throwing stuff at him will hit other Jedi and throwing a lightaber in that fight will most likely kill some Jedi.
b),c) and d). the jedi have way better concentration than that and would not make the mistake of friendly fire. They have been training all of their life and would have enough concentration to be incredibly accurate. now the jedi aren't exactly going to arrange themselves in a way that they are blocking people's views. they will allow every other jedi a clear line of sight towards ragnos and its not as if the jedi have to do these force powers directly at ragnos. the rubble being thrown for example could be coming from above.
If you throw stuff on 1 person that is in close range combat with 4-6 other persons you will always hit the 4-6 other persons more likely than the one person you wanted to hit because they are moving while you try to throw things. And if you can predict the movements of 7 people simultaneously you wouldn't need to throw anything into that fight because you would surely be able to waste a single person in melee combat (in this case Ragnos).
e) jedi are trained to be brave and they know their duty and therefor would not even hesitate to attack ragnos in the best way that they can. Also the other added jedi are not exactly going to be a hindrence to yoda and the other masters and i will explain why. If the other jedi attack Ragnos aswell as the prominent members of the council then ragnos will have to defend against pretty much every main lightsaber form other than makashi. Ragnos will have to defend against different styles of lightsaber combat, different parts of his body being attacked and all of the other jedis' force powers. ragnos would not stand a chance
They would not jump into an area where 5 - 7 very powerful individuals are participating in a fight while dozens of other people throw stuff or even their lightsabers into that zone. Because "comitting suicide without any reason" doesn't seem to belong to the duty of a Jedi and is more stupid than brave.
And I'm not arguing that Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan together might be able to take Ragnos - I'm arguing that their won't be 50 Jedi attacking Ragnos at once because their simply is enough space to throw things or use force attacks while 4-6 people are moving close to him (In fact the danger to hit some of your fellow Jedi would be far greater than the benefit of such an action).
no the force users are their to attack if the duelists cant close down on ragnos. the situation would be about 30 jedi in position far awy from ragnos ready to force attack him while jedi masters attempt to duel ragnos. If ragnos holds back the masters the 30 or so jedi are ready to unleash their fury of force attacks. So basically there are always jedi ready to either force attack ragnos or duel him. So whoever out of them ragnos attacks (whether they are the duelists or force users), the others are rwadt to attack an inarmed ragnos as he is not able to defend himself from both the duelers and the force users at the same time. here is how it goes. The duelists advance on ragnos. If he attacks back the force users are ready to attck him. The force attacks they use can also be from above straight to ragnos. and if he attacks the force users the jedi are ready to slice him up. this is the situation but i dont think that the masters even need the force users as their wide range of lightsaber forms would confuse ragnos. he would find it difficult for example defending agains ataru user yoda while at the sane time being attcked by vapaad user windu. soresu user obi won, shi cho user fisto, schien user plo koon etc. but the force users are an added bonus. And as i said before the jedi have been training for years and are very accurate with their force abilities.
Nai one how thing..
How the HK droids can kill the Jedi
Well one HK droid in a battle against one Jedi does mean a hard time for both seeing as HK doesn't use normal weapons but the Jedi has the force. However this time its a heavy weight force user trying to keep them all at bay and a shit load of Jedi trying to reach that force user while droids are shooting rockets, gas mines grenades and god knows what else at them.
Its not that they are more powerful then a Jedi, its just that they can easily destroy groups of people if necessary, and in this case its necessary. I mean the Huns were great warriors but throw them against a smaller battalion of tanks and they are going to lose. Even though the huns would easily kill the tank crew in single combat.
So you are going to doge a thermal detonator and a flame thrower? Have fun... Its not going to be easy.. And if it was easy to kill an HK droid please explain how better Jedi then most in ROTS were killed by him. HK clearly knows how to kill Jedi. Even though he ussually uses different strategies he would still make a good fight for any Jedi.
oh fish head fishy fishy. that is like saying that an astromech droid can kill a jedi because in kotor i was able to kill a jedi with t3m4 aswell. Yet obviously an astromech cant kill a jedi just like a hk droid cant. And if i were a jedi i would force push the thermal detonater before it detonated and dodge the flamethrower and saber throw the droid killing it.