Ragnos temple purge

Originally posted by Dark Nemesis
How are the PT jedi compareable to ancient minor sith lords?

And why is everyone overlooking the mass slaughter that is ensured to happen because more than half of the temple hasn't seen combat or can't hold their own. Geonosis proved how combat ineffective the jedi are, and that was against inferior droids and no Sith lords. How is morale going to be for the jedi who are watching their kin die in droves? Eventually, the bodies will be stacked waist high in some rooms. It would be a massacre.

There was in several hundred thousand droids on Geonosis. Add that to the Geonosian armies, and it can be expected for many Jedi to die.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
you know what nai fohl you're a dickhead. im on your side and have actually posted more logic than you. Just because you type long speeches doesn't mean that not everything is bullshit. You started on me for no reason and out of everyone argueing against ragnos, you talk the most bs apart from maybe overlord

😑 You really are a master at alienating people.

I wasn't overlooking that fact. I'm just thinking that Yoda (using the force to accelerate his movements) can wield a weapon with nearly no weight faster than Ragnos (also accelarting his movements using the force) can wield a sword that is actually somewhat heavy even though Ragnos does have some muscles to use.

You also forget basic physics. Once the two blades meet, you'll have reverberation down the length of the weapon. With the sword, the reverberation will spread along the length of the blade and dissipate, with the lightsaber, it will all fly into the hilt and make it wobble. Any hit you feel with a sword will be far worse with a lightsaber.

@Illustrious:
Please don't mix my thoughts with that of birthoftheforce...and where did you get the idea from that Ragnos is a superior combatant (and I'm not talking about force powers) compared to somebody else. He can kill quite some people with force powers (see Nadd destroying the entire beast rider population on Onderon with Sith magic) but thousands of force users some of them (in terms of force power) compareable to the minor Sith Lords ? I don't think so...

Yet, they all aren't going to be able to swarm him at once. All Ragnos has to do is keep the HK droids firing, have him occassionally pump a bit of lightning, and then dice up anyone who manages to weave their way through the blaster and flames. I don't see any padawans and younglings surviving the blaster fire, and most knights and some masters would die from it too. The big 4 (Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin) would likely be able to survive, but they would likely be diced up.

And where do I get the idea he is the greater combatant? Because he's mentioned as the most powerful of the most powerful, I assume that's more than simply being able to outdo others in cheese-eating competitions.

Birthoftheforce...your are a balatro(that's latin for fool)

Dude, you guys need to ease off and stop bashing members. I don't want to see half of the forum banned.

Originally posted by Dark Nemesis
No, your question was ridiculous. And you calling me retarded is pretty poor on your part.

I am laughing at you, you don't even give an argument why the question is stupid, you must think you are an über mensch or something that you can just state stuff like that... 🙁

Originally posted by overlord
I am laughing at you, you don't even give an argument why the question is stupid, you must think you are an über mensch or something that you can just state stuff like that... 🙁

He does appear to think he is omniscient.

I shall fascino you all mwhahahahaha!!!!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He does appear to think he is omniscient.

I don't think he appears that way at all. I've gotten him to admit he's wrong before, and I've seen him waver from initial stances. However, he does maintain that in a debate, you have to stick towards actual debating, instead of throwing around supposition and hypotheticals. From our knowledge, we can make a hypothesis as to the outcome, and I've seen nothing mentioned that would stir me from my original outcome. In fact, most of my most poignant points are ignored altogether by the other side, that doesn't bode well for you.

I wish prosperitas to you all!(yes I am showing off my latin vocabulary)

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He does appear to think he is omniscient.

Yeah, I mean, how could I have known throwing in a peaceful little new factor in this thread would make me an idiot.. I guess they only understand agressive posts or something.. Even if it was a stupid question it would be nice if someone pointed out to me why it is so stupid.. 🙁

‚¢‚©‚É‚_‚é‚©‚±‚ñ‚É‚¿‚́B

@ Illustrious.

I try to answer every question that goes against the side I am on, and I think I do a good job most of the time, but in this thread there have been five post in a single minute, and I really can't do a lot for that, Nai hasn't been in this a whole lot, but he does make good arguments for whatever he does adress. You can't reasonably say that your arguments are for the most part ignored. You have missed just as many as I have.

Somehow, nobody has told me how they will overwhelm Ragnos (which you all claim will happen) if you agree that no more than a handful of individuals could even hope to attack each him at the same time without running into problems of collusion.

So far, no body has explained how the Jedi will weave their way past the HK droid's blaster fire, flamethrower, and explosives to even get to Ragnos. Remember, Jango's flamethrower didn't work, likely contributing towards Mace decapitating him.

So far, no one has accounted for how they will counter Ragnos' offensive force powers like grip or lightning. Outside of Mace and Obi-Wan with their saber (on weaker foe's no less) and Yoda, everyone else seems to get fried by even weak doses of lightning.

So far, no one has accounted for how weakened PT Era Jedi will manage to hack up "the most powerful of the most powerful" of a "godlike" warrior empire when they clearly can't simply speedblitz him, can't swarm him, and can't get to him without weaving past a field of blaster fire.

So far, no one has accounted for the limited space along the hallways, bridges, and smaller rooms of the temple, clearly indicating it's impossible to simply gang up on one individual target flanked by deadly droids.

I could go on, but it's getting lopsided already.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You also forget basic physics. Once the two blades meet, you'll have reverberation down the length of the weapon. With the sword, the reverberation will spread along the length of the blade and dissipate, with the lightsaber, it will all fly into the hilt and make it wobble. Any hit you feel with a sword will be far worse with a lightsaber.

Yoda doesn't even need to parry with his lightsaber because he can just avoid getting hit - he managed to avoid attacks from Plo Koon, Saesee Tin and Deepa Billaba at once without even having a lightsaber in his hands.

And just to remind you how fast Yoda is: In ROTS when Yoda and Obi-Wan are fighting the clone troopers in front of the temple you can see Yoda deflecting blaster fire (and they are using something like machine guns) from six clone troopers at once then - while doing this - he redirects one blaster bolt back at one clone trooper with his lightsaber killing him. Then he uses force push on another while still deflecting fire from four other troopers, cuts one down (three left) and throws his lightsaber into the chest of one of the troopers while avoiding blaster fire from 3 directions. Then killing the other people. So yes...Yoda is goddamn fast and I say too fast for Ragnos wielding a Sith sword.

Yet, they all aren't going to be able to swarm him at once. All Ragnos has to do is keep the HK droids firing, have him occassionally pump a bit of lightning, and then dice up anyone who manages to weave their way through the blaster and flames. I don't see any padawans and younglings surviving the blaster fire, and most knights and some masters would die from it too. The big 4 (Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin) would likely be able to survive, but they would likely be diced up.

As I said their are at least 60 people on Knight or Master status using form III (blaster defence !), IV (weird movements) or V (directly redirecting blasterfire) and please - if 90 Younglings who are able to deflect blasterfire are thrown into a single room they will just disable some of the droids by luckily deflecting blaster bolts in the right direktion - form V using Padawans and Knights will do that easily. Think about that HK is an assasination droid and not built for normal combat at least not against Jedi. Hell...we saw T3 destroying 3 HK-50 droids at once (this has to be done in KotoR II so I will consider this "canon"😉 and they are basically copies of HK-47.

And where do I get the idea he is the greater combatant? Because he's mentioned as the most powerful of the most powerful, I assume that's more than simply being able to outdo others in cheese-eating competitions.

When I'm talking about combat I'm always referring to saberskills and the only one that Ragnos killed in a swordfight was Simus. Even if he is able to waste every single Sith under his command in a swordfight. Yoda - because of what you can see in AotC and RotS - is by far the most powerful duellist ever just because of his speed and his size which grants him the ability to simply avoid hits.

I'm not saying that he will survive Ragnos force attacks for sure but if Yoda reaches melee combat, Ragnos is dead because of Yodas unmatched speed and his 800 years of lightsaber fighting experience.

See...Yoda needs to use the force to be able to move fast for Ragnos is just a nice bonus to what he already can do with sheer muscle-power thereby Yoda will be more used to accelerate his movments with the force because Ragnos never needed that ability (Note: You need the force to train with a lightsaber because it's hard to tell were the blade is since it has no weight while you can wield a normal sword without having experience and most likely won't hurt yourself). So if Yoda alone starts attacking Ragnos in melee combat Ragnos won't probably survive that and if you throw in Obi-Wan, Anakin and Mace (with Mace being a badass swordfighter) I doubt that Ragnos is able to defend against 4 lightsabers at once. He might kill Obi-Wan and Anakin in this situation but the combined duelling skills of Mace and Yoda in a situation where all the droids are most likely already down - I don't think Ragnos is going to survive that.

How many Jedi do we know are exceptionally skilled in combat, and not Niman users? Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Obi, Cin, Sora, Depa, Luminara, Bariss, Plo, Aayla, Kit and some others. Even with missed ones, it can't be more than 20. Consider HK's are far superior to TF and SB droids, they will slaughter all the other padawans, knights, and masters. Don't think, "well there were more on Geonosis." HK's fight nothing like droids. They are assassins, not soldiers. They will hide, take sniper positions, plant bombs, throw grenades, use flamethrowers. They won't fight like soldiers, they'll fight just like their name, Hunter Killers.

Let us consider the casualties as of Ragnos not yet involved. Probably many to most of the weaker Jedi. Now let us throw Ragnos in. He can collapse parts of the building, shoot lightning, do incredibly strong Force Waves, not just pushes, that will throw tens or twenties, if not hundreds, of Jedi away at a time. And don't think the masters won't get thrown, Sidious threw Yoda and Sidious is in no way stronger than Ragnos. I won't consider collapsing stars or freezing, I don't know if he can do those, but if he can, then more power to him.

No one in the PT Order can handle Ragnos one-on-one, period. So, while the survivors are deflecting shots, other HK's from concealed positions snipe. Anyone with half a knowledge of Star Wars knows lightsabers can not deflect sniper fire. So those who are concentrated on deflecting (Soresu users like Obi, Luminara, and Bariss) will get sniped since their Force-precog powers are focussed on incoming shots. Mace, though a great fighter, pales in Ragnos' presence. Yoda is a better match, probably the best chance, but I still say will lose definitely. Ragnos mops up the rest and wins.

Think of it like this. jedi are going to be super speeding towards ragnos, force pushing ragnos, throwing rubble at ragnos attempting to duel with ragnos and a hell of a lot more than that. there are ten thousand jedi in the temple. only about 15 of those jedi will be killed by the droids. About 50 jedi would be able to attack ragnos at a time whether using sabers of the force. Do you really think ragnos will be able to deal with all of that. No he wont.

Name one instance in which any PT Jedi has used Force Speed. Only PT person I've seen use it is Asajj, and she's no Jedi. And what is your obsession with rubble? Ragnos throws Force WAVES, way more than enough to deflect debris. Consider it's gonna be hard for 50 people to attack at once. Ever try to surround someone? Yeah, he's going to be fighting 6 people max at any one given time due to the fact that lightsabers are being used, which are dangerous considering they have no weight. 15 Jedi killed? Re-read the last 5 paragraphs I wrote.

Originally posted by Se7in
How many Jedi do we know are exceptionally skilled in combat, and not Niman users? Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Obi, Cin, Sora, Depa, Luminara, Bariss, Plo, Aayla, Kit and some others. Even with missed ones, it can't be more than 20. Consider HK's are far superior to TF and SB droids, they will slaughter all the other padawans, knights, and masters. Don't think, "well there were more on Geonosis." HK's fight nothing like droids. They are assassins, not soldiers. They will hide, take sniper positions, plant bombs, throw grenades, use flamethrowers. They won't fight like soldiers, they'll fight just like their name, Hunter Killers.

Let us consider the casualties as of Ragnos not yet involved. Probably many to most of the weaker Jedi. Now let us throw Ragnos in. He can collapse parts of the building, shoot lightning, do incredibly strong Force Waves, not just pushes, that will throw tens or twenties, if not hundreds, of Jedi away at a time. And don't think the masters won't get thrown, Sidious threw Yoda and Sidious is in no way stronger than Ragnos. I won't consider collapsing stars or freezing, I don't know if he can do those, but if he can, then more power to him.

No one in the PT Order can handle Ragnos one-on-one, period. So, while the survivors are deflecting shots, other HK's from concealed positions snipe. Anyone with half a knowledge of Star Wars knows lightsabers can not deflect sniper fire. So those who are concentrated on deflecting (Soresu users like Obi, Luminara, and Bariss) will get sniped since their Force-precog powers are focussed on incoming shots. Mace, though a great fighter, pales in Ragnos' presence. Yoda is a better match, probably the best chance, but I still say will lose definitely. Ragnos mops up the rest and wins.

Name one instance in which any PT Jedi has used Force Speed. Only PT person I've seen use it is Asajj, and she's no Jedi. And what is your obsession with rubble? Ragnos throws Force WAVES, way more than enough to deflect debris. Consider it's gonna be hard for 50 people to attack at once. Ever try to surround someone? Yeah, he's going to be fighting 6 people max at any one given time due to the fact that lightsabers are being used, which are dangerous considering they have no weight. 15 Jedi killed? Re-read the last 5 paragraphs I wrote.

Originally posted by Se7in
How many Jedi do we know are exceptionally skilled in combat, and not Niman users? Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Obi, Cin, Sora, Depa, Luminara, Bariss, Plo, Aayla, Kit and some others. Even with missed ones, it can't be more than 20. Consider HK's are far superior to TF and SB droids, they will slaughter all the other padawans, knights, and masters. Don't think, "well there were more on Geonosis." HK's fight nothing like droids. They are assassins, not soldiers. They will hide, take sniper positions, plant bombs, throw grenades, use flamethrowers. They won't fight like soldiers, they'll fight just like their name, Hunter Killers.

a)
The fact that not every single Jedi is descriped as an uber powerful combatant doesn't mean there aren't more than 20. In fact every Jedi not practioning Niman has to be seen as quite powerful. Hell...in ROTS we saw a Padawan (!) killing 6 clone troopers before getting killed (yeah it was GL's son but that doesn't count here). So there might actually be hundrets of persons that can put up a good fight.

b)
Hide ? Take sniper positions ? Plant bombs ? Throw grenades ? Use flamethrowers ? Did you miss the fact that they are fighting in the Jedi Temple against Jedi ?

The Jedi tempel has basically HUGE rooms, LONG hallways and some smaller areas but there are no "sniper positions" or places you really can hide. Now to enter the temple they most likely have to:

1) Use the main entrance and there is a gatekeeper. Killing him will result in alerting all other Jedi within the temple.

2) Blow a hole into the wall and this will also result in alerting all other Jedi within the temple.

So you will most likely have a great battle in the temples entrance hall with all droids + Ragnos facing how-many-Jedi-there-ever-might-be-within-the-temple-I-don't-know.

No sniping areas, no planting bombs - the HK-47 droids + Ragnos versus serveral hundrets (if not thousands) of Jedi Knights. Throwing grenades on force users might result in grenades landing before your own feet - shooting with blasters on an army of lightsaber wielders...well...lets see.

Obi-Wan + Yoda > 10 clone troopers equiped with semi automatic blaster weapons. In fact the only Jedi we ever saw getting killed by a single person with a blaster is Colemen Trebor vs Jango Fett and this was close range blaster use while the Jedi was focusing on Count Dooku. All other Jedi killed by blasters were killed by superior numbers of droids / clone troopers.

It took 8 clone troopers to kill Ki-Adi-Mundi and he killed 2 of them before going down. Zett Jukassa (just to mention it again: a 10-year-old-Padawan) cutting through 6 clone troopers before 4 others were able to shoot him to death.

And keep in mind that the clone troopers are copies of Jango Fett that only have weaker minds but basically the same "natural" abilities (strength, reaction time and so on...)

So I don't really give the HK droids a big chance to survive that action or kill that great number of Jedi simply because of the fact that they are outnumbered and their aren't many ways to kill a Jedi in "direct combat".

Let us consider the casualties as of Ragnos not yet involved. Probably many to most of the weaker Jedi. Now let us throw Ragnos in. He can collapse parts of the building, shoot lightning, do incredibly strong Force Waves, not just pushes, that will throw tens or twenties, if not hundreds, of Jedi away at a time. And don't think the masters won't get thrown, Sidious threw Yoda and Sidious is in no way stronger than Ragnos. I won't consider collapsing stars or freezing, I don't know if he can do those, but if he can, then more power to him.

That "consideration" of casualties is simply not right. Ragnos will enter the tempel and whoop the floor with Jedi - I don't want to discuss that point. But once the droids are down (and they will go down) I think there would still be dozens of Jedi alive including most of the Council members and while I think that Ragnos could take most of them out of combat with sheer force powers he won't be able to kill hundrets or dozens of Jedi Knights on his own.

No one in the PT Order can handle Ragnos one-on-one, period. So, while the survivors are deflecting shots, other HK's from concealed positions snipe. Anyone with half a knowledge of Star Wars knows lightsabers can not deflect sniper fire. So those who are concentrated on deflecting (Soresu users like Obi, Luminara, and Bariss) will get sniped since their Force-precog powers are focussed on incoming shots. Mace, though a great fighter, pales in Ragnos' presence. Yoda is a better match, probably the best chance, but I still say will lose definitely. Ragnos mops up the rest and wins.

Jedi can't deflect sniper shots ? What kind of stupidity is that ? Of course they can. Even if you would use projectil weapons against a Jedi a bullet will melt when hitting a lightsaber and all HK droids are using blaster weapons so they can be and WILL be deflected by lightsabers and to remind you again: There aren't "sniper positions" in the temple and if there were some the HK droids could still pushed or pulled out of them with the force.

Name one instance in which any PT Jedi has used Force Speed. Only PT person I've seen use it is Asajj, and she's no Jedi.

Watch TPM again. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan use force speed to escape the destroyer droids. And since Obi-Wan can use it pretty likely every Padawan can do that.

And what is your obsession with rubble? Ragnos throws Force WAVES, way more than enough to deflect debris. Consider it's gonna be hard for 50 people to attack at once. Ever try to surround someone? Yeah, he's going to be fighting 6 people max at any one given time due to the fact that lightsabers are being used, which are dangerous considering they have no weight. 15 Jedi killed? Re-read the last 5 paragraphs I wrote.

Sorry...but that paragraphs you wrote seem contratict the reality of the SW universe quite often. Did we ever see HK-47 on his own killing a Jedi ? No. Did he even talk about killing a Jedi ? No. So what makes you think a single HK-47 droid can kill a Jedi ? I don't know...

What makes you think Ragnos could take hundrets of Jedi - I don't know. Even Ragnos power is limited no matter how great he was (and he was powerful - no discussion about that) and thereby he can get killed.

what do you mean no sniper positions? you crazy? and the jedi cant deflect it because they will be focused on Ragnos/other droids. not all younglings are GLs children, not all padawans are aotc anakins, not all knights are ROTS anakins, not all masters are ROTS obis. there are like 100 great jedi and Ragnos can kill them 20 at a time with uber force crushes.

6 Clone Troopers to take down a Padawan? Okay, consider Clone Troopers a basic grunt units, skilled at that, but still the basic unit. Can a clone trooper take down a three baby rancors? No. They wield semi-automatic weapons. HK's wield Mandalorian Rippers and Disintegrators. No sniper positions? Watch the Temple Purge scene. The upper parts of the main hall are perfect. Yes, there is most likely Jedi up there also. A few well placed grenades, upper halls are cut off. Jedi can use saber throw, but then they would get shot and can't deflect. What about behind the pillars? Ragnos, or a bomb from one of the HK's, could knock those things down easy. Jedi can't hold those up. Maybe Yoda, but how many Yoda's does the Order have? 1. How many pillars? 4 at the least, we don't know. Also, you expect the Jedi to get across that huge hall without getting overwhelming by gun fire, explosives, lightning, falling debris and pillars, and snipers? I must watch TPM again, but believe you about the Force Speed thing. But even if that is so, Ragnos could probably reach it on a WAY higher degree than ANYONE from the PT era. You bring up a good argument, but I still am far from convinced.