Lucifer and Michael vs. Great Evil Beast

Originally posted by kevdude
here is 2 sites that show the whhttp://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosmic_entities_dc/ole DCU being created or talked about.
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/docs/pre20thcentury.html
here is the Swamp Thing site showing the creation of The Great Evil Beast, keep in mind The Beast is NOT Lucifer Morningstar or The First of the Fallen
http://rhandley.0catch.com/swampthing/Chrono-01.htm

this is how it should be in the DC/Marvel.

The Presence/The Great Beast
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael/The Word/The Source
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force

Moore made it clear the primordial shadow had nothing to do with any Christian religion, he said it was the basic idea of light and darkness, quite a good pair of sites but essetially floored. As it said here that the primordial Darkness is barred from the universe this is not wuite rightif you read the issues. When he swallows swampy inside him he and the light join. Neither have anything to do with Christianity. The Gods you speak of are all probably lower than theser concepts. But its supposition and you have to have been around in the eighties to realise this.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
oh n yea, when micheal died,. the resulting demiurgic explosion was powerful enough to destroy the entire multiverse, lucifer stood at the heart of this explosion with micheal in his hands, and didnt even get a tan{just like the destruction of the multiverse by THOTU by thanos, only in that even the living tribunal died}

Ok who exactly killed Michael, if he beyond the realm of death and is so powerful ??????? 🙂

Originally posted by yahman
Ok who exactly killed Michael, if he beyond the realm of death and is so powerful ??????? 🙂

it was an entire host of angels and demons who had taken advantage of micheal, and wounded him, altough they couldnt kil him, to heal his brother's wounds, lucifer KILLED him, knowing that when he was reborn, he would be healed and at full power again,

Originally posted by leonheartmm
man i really didnt wanna write all that but if u want it, here goes, THOTU =power of one whole multiverse, it has been able to destroy than recreat from the ashes, an entire multiverse, lucifer on the other hand is beyond the multiverse, he has at any given time 50%the power to create a multiverse, meaning that with the other 50% {micheal} he can creat an entire multiverse without even breaking a sweat, but thas just without breakin a sweat, if lucifer dies, the demiurgic explosion will result in the creation of a whole new multiverse{without there being any micheal involved} that puts his power easily above that of THOTU which at best, usin all its power can RECREATE one multiverse, also lucifer is beyond death, so death has no power over him, none of the endless do, lucifer is also responsible for the creation of the endless through god, but thas not all, lucifer has created atleast 3 different multiverses until now{one of which he is a ruler of currently} and the last one he supposedly created without micheal or without killing himself, he has also ruled hell, he also has a mind of unimaginable intellect and wit, even without his powers, he has tricked and destroyed god's plans many times, so now do u see why lucifer is second only to TOAA.

THOTU didnt destroy a multiverse, wielded by Thanos it destroyed the 616 reality as shown in issue 6 of The End. The full extent of its power was not revealed all we know is that it is more powerful than the IG and Thanos called it the power of the supreme one.

Lucifer at any given time has as his god given power the will of God. He cannot make a universe on his own. Michael as his god given power wields the creation power of God he to cannot make a universe. The formation of a universe is a joint effort between them. Michael provides the matter and Lucifer shapes it into planets, stars, galaxies etc.

As such if Lucifer dies there would not be a demiurgic explosion to destroy the universe because that is not the power he contains.

Another thing i need to point out is that Lucifer created his own universe with Michael, not a multiverse as stated quite clearly on page 4 of Lucifer #16. He has never created a multiverse ever. Check out the issue. Death holds no power over him when he's in his universe or Presences however when he's in the realms of other gods and lords of alternate hells then he is very susceptible to death. One need only look at Lucifer issues 5 to 8 when he was in the house of windowless rooms. Lucifer was rendered both mortal and powerless.

Other than that yeah i agree with you as an entity if Lucifer came into Marvel he would be right up there in the hierarchy on the same level as the likes of LT and the White Crown Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
THOTU
Another thing i need to point out is that Lucifer created his own universe with Michael, not a multiverse as stated quite clearly on page 4 of Lucifer #16. He has never created a multiverse ever. Check out the issue. Death holds no power over him when he's in his universe or Presences however when he's in the realms of other gods and lords of alternate hells then he is very susceptible to death. One need only look at Lucifer issues 5 to 8 when he was in the house of windowless rooms. Lucifer was rendered both mortal and powerless.

but ass stated in DC comics index (POWERS AND WEAPONS Lucifer is omnipotent, he can create his own universes on a whim, create life and create entire concepts like 'Time' from scratch.His power is incalculable. He stood on ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, the explosion that could wipe out a multiverse, and didn't even get a tan.
The only thing he cannot do is create his own multiverse alone, he needs his brother Michael to do that.
Only his brother Michael is his equal in power, and only God is superior to both of them.
But the power Lucifer likes to use most is his brain, his devious bastardness allow him to defeat gods even when he is mortal and powerless.) so passed on ur infore wat is said about lucifers powers is a lie. = http://www.dcuguide.com/Index_Home.php

Originally posted by supremthor
but ass stated in DC comics index (POWERS AND WEAPONS Lucifer is omnipotent, he can create his own universes on a whim, create life and create entire concepts like 'Time' from scratch.His power is incalculable. He stood on ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, the explosion that could wipe out a multiverse, and didn't even get a tan.
The only thing he cannot do is create his own multiverse alone, he needs his brother Michael to do that.
Only his brother Michael is his equal in power, and only God is superior to both of them.
But the power Lucifer likes to use most is his brain, his devious bastardness allow him to defeat gods even when he is mortal and powerless.) so passed on ur infore wat is said about lucifers powers is a lie. = http://www.dcuguide.com/Index_Home.php

That is an unofficial source. Anyone who actually reads Lucifer can see that when Lucifer created his own universe he did so with the aid of Michael as shown quite clearly in the aforementioned issue. Unofficial source versus the comic just doesnt cut it. I dont doubt his power as ive made quite clear in my last post. However going by the comic Lucifer requires the demiurgic powers of Michael to create universes. It was a universe he created with Michael not a multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
THOTU didnt destroy a multiverse, wielded by Thanos it destroyed the 616 reality as shown in issue 6 of The End. The full extent of its power was not revealed all we know is that it is more powerful than the IG and Thanos called it the power of the supreme one.

Lucifer at any given time has as his god given power the will of God. He cannot make a universe on his own. Michael as his god given power wields the creation power of God he to cannot make a universe. The formation of a universe is a joint effort between them. Michael provides the matter and Lucifer shapes it into planets, stars, galaxies etc.

As such if Lucifer dies there would not be a demiurgic explosion to destroy the universe because that is not the power he contains.

Another thing i need to point out is that Lucifer created his own universe with Michael, not a multiverse as stated quite clearly on page 4 of Lucifer #16. He has never created a multiverse ever. Check out the issue. Death holds no power over him when he's in his universe or Presences however when he's in the realms of other gods and lords of alternate hells then he is very susceptible to death. One need only look at Lucifer issues 5 to 8 when he was in the house of windowless rooms. Lucifer was rendered both mortal and powerless.

Other than that yeah i agree with you as an entity if Lucifer came into Marvel he would be right up there in the hierarchy on the same level as the likes of LT and the White Crown Phoenix.

THOTU destroyed than recreated the entire multiverse, includin the tribunal.
it destroyed tribunal and hence was more powerful than the living tribunal.
lucifer's power is NOT GOD GIVEN OR CONTROLLED BY GOD'S WILL, thas the definition for spectar's power, lucifer is far more powerful, having more than 50% the power of god, same goes for micheal, theyr are god's SONS not SERVANTS.

THEY CAN CREATE A MULTIVERSE EASILY WITHOUT EXHAUSTING THEIR POWERS AND "WITHOUT" GOD'S WILL, go read up on some lucifer, hellblazer or sandman comics.

if lucifer were to die, there would be a demiurgic explosion just like in the case of micheals death but there would have to be sum1 atleast equal in power to lucifer to KILL him and make sure that he goes through death other wise, the endless DEATH has no domain over lucifer. not in any realm, and the only reason he was succeptible to it in the room was because he had cut his wings and given up his inheretn power than because he was bored of it.

AND IT WAS MOST CERTAINLY a multiverse, lucifer can creat universes atthe whim of a thought and multiverseS easily with micheals help , he can choose to do so on his own by killing himself and creating a multiverse, also, the multiverse created after the demiurgic explosion was also purely lucifer's worlk without micheal being involved or him dying.

and yea one last thing, THE PHEONIX FORCE WOULD BE LESS SIGNIFICANT TO LUCIFER THAN THE ANTS HIS SHOES CRUSH ON THE OUTSIDE OF HIS CLUB.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That is an unofficial source. Anyone who actually reads Lucifer can see that when Lucifer created his own universe he did so with the aid of Michael as shown quite clearly in the aforementioned issue. Unofficial source versus the comic just doesnt cut it. I dont doubt his power as ive made quite clear in my last post. However going by the comic Lucifer requires the demiurgic powers of Michael to create universes. It was a universe he created with Michael not a multiverse.

it was a MULTIVERSE , n im not takin this from any unofficial sources, this is straight from vertigo comics.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
THOTU destroyed than recreated the entire multiverse, includin the tribunal.
it destroyed tribunal and hence was more powerful than the living tribunal.
lucifer's power is NOT GOD GIVEN OR CONTROLLED BY GOD'S WILL, thas the definition for spectar's power, lucifer is far more powerful, having more than 50% the power of god, same goes for micheal, theyr are god's SONS not SERVANTS.

THEY CAN CREATE A MULTIVERSE EASILY WITHOUT EXHAUSTING THEIR POWERS AND "WITHOUT" GOD'S WILL, go read up on some lucifer, hellblazer or sandman comics.

if lucifer were to die, there would be a demiurgic explosion just like in the case of micheals death but there would have to be sum1 atleast equal in power to lucifer to KILL him and make sure that he goes through death other wise, the endless DEATH has no domain over lucifer. not in any realm, and the only reason he was succeptible to it in the room was because he had cut his wings and given up his inheretn power than because he was bored of it.

AND IT WAS MOST CERTAINLY a multiverse, lucifer can creat universes atthe whim of a thought and multiverseS easily with micheals help , he can choose to do so on his own by killing himself and creating a multiverse, also, the multiverse created after the demiurgic explosion was also purely lucifer's worlk without micheal being involved or him dying.

and yea one last thing, THE PHEONIX FORCE WOULD BE LESS SIGNIFICANT TO LUCIFER THAN THE ANTS HIS SHOES CRUSH ON THE OUTSIDE OF HIS CLUB.

Im not disputing with H.O.T.U's power. Its obvious thats its beyond LT. As a fan of Lucifer i have all of the issues up to the current one. Lucifer and Michael are gods creations. Yahweh makes it quite clear on page 1 of issue 39 that Michael was given the demiurgic powers while Lucifer was given gods will. Not only that but its common knowledge to all on here so that is not in debate. In the same issue it is made quite apparent that the brothers were made for a purpose to serve Gods will and they find out to the disgust of Lucifer that despite his betrayal he was still following the Great Plan.

Why you felt the need to tell me that they can create a multiverse without Gods permission is beyond me. I never said once that god controls their every actions. You've misinterpreted. Not my problem.

If Lucifer was killed there would not be a demiurgic explosion because that is not the powers that were bestowed upon him by Yahweh. There is a reason why a joint effort from the brothers is required to create universes. Michael is the source of the demiurgic energies. He provides the matter, whilst Lucifer with his will shapes the matter into stars, galaxies etc.

It was most definitely a universe he created for the Presence as stated not only in the aforementioned issues but also in 26. Your views and opinions versus whats stated in the comic are insufficient im afraid.

The Phoenix Force isnt an entity thats what you need to get out of your head Leon. As shown in New Xmen iand cemented into current continuity by Endsong, it is just a power source, the power of the Crown. Lucifer most certainly isnt beyond that im sorry to say. A comparison to The White Crown Phoenix however is where he comes off more favourably. They would be peers as i and others have conveyed on this thread.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it was a MULTIVERSE , n im not takin this from any unofficial sources, this is straight from vertigo comics.

Ok i tire of this Leon. Give me an hour or so im just logging off for a bit then i'll post the appropriate scans. It was indeed a universe he created and its a universe he needed help with making. I await your reply. Cya in an hour 🙂

The DCU biblical charachters from vertigo are so far above the regular dc charachters that they havnt even bothered to play a part in multiversal/universal scale events such as zero hour or the Crisis on infinite earths. Even those events were below them (although when antimonitor destroyed the multiverse, it is said that even God couldnt comprehend some of the concepts destroyed by the antimonitor).

lucifer is not a servant of god, he is THE DEVIL the opposer to god's will, and apparently has enough power to do that too,

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not disputing with H.O.T.U's power. Its obvious thats its beyond LT. As a fan of Lucifer i have all of the issues up to the current one. Lucifer and Michael are gods creations. Yahweh makes it quite clear on page 1 of issue 39 that Michael was given the demiurgic powers while Lucifer was given gods will. Not only that but its common knowledge to all on here so that is not in debate. In the same issue it is made quite apparent that the brothers were made for a purpose to serve Gods will and they find out to the disgust of Lucifer that despite his betrayal he was still following the Great Plan.

Why you felt the need to tell me that they can create a multiverse without Gods permission is beyond me. I never said once that god controls their every actions. You've misinterpreted. Not my problem.

If Lucifer was killed there would not be a demiurgic explosion because that is not the powers that were bestowed upon him by Yahweh. There is a reason why a joint effort from the brothers is required to create universes. Michael is the source of the demiurgic energies. He provides the matter, whilst Lucifer with his will shapes the matter into stars, galaxies etc.

It was most definitely a universe he created for the Presence as stated not only in the aforementioned issues but also in 26. Your views and opinions versus whats stated in the comic are insufficient im afraid.

The Phoenix Force isnt an entity thats what you need to get out of your head Leon. As shown in New Xmen iand cemented into current continuity by Endsong, it is just a power source, the power of the Crown. Lucifer most certainly isnt beyond that im sorry to say. A comparison to The White Crown Phoenix however is where he comes off more favourably. They would be peers as i and others have conveyed on this thread.

actually, micheal is power and lucifer is will, they were the SONS OF GOD, not some pathetic subjects that served him, the only reason this doesnt mae sense to u gs is because u think that god and the presence are the same, they are actually quite different, god is just ONE aspect of the presence, the presence is anything and everything, there is nuthing outside the presence except the great beast, lucifer was never a servant to god, the very reason he fell from heaven was because he went agaisnt the master plan of the presence which god could not tolerate, he has beaten god many times at his own game , but is still in the grasp of the presence, and thas why he was followin THE GREAT PLAN, because even though he is beyond god now, he is still not beyond the presence, this is further justified by the fact that god has almost been killed by swamp thing, has left creation itself and WAS killed by saint of killers, if he had the ranlk of the presence, creation itself would probably have died out or there would have been serious impacts on creation, but that was not the case as god is not the presence in whole. and secondly the whole micheal creates matter and lucifer shapes it is a REPRESENTATION of the biblical ideas, lucifer and micheal were responsible for the original multiverse u know, thats how it is officially in dc and vertigo, god created two sons, they were the ones, who together created the entire multiverse{if not then who the heack created the multiverse gs?} {it should be noted that dc originally was a universe just like every other comic book titles, and lucifer and micheal and god were thought to rule the universe alone, but soon that wasnt eough for the writers to work with and the multiverse was given light, n since lucifer and micheal were responsible for creation, they were the makers of the classic multiverse , and currently lucifer has shown to be able to create a multiverse {and rule one as hell was also a multiverse, along with the one he currently rules} with micheal dead, and remember, lucifer has never really died, even when he was tricked by fenris, he was shown to be outside the bounds of death and the endless, {the same endless that have jurisdiction over every multiverse } and he also CREATED the endless from scratch gs, think about that.

the crown as has been previously proven in all the threads u made{and u do seem to forget what happened in each rather easily and make urself believe it didnt exist}to be not the concious or god, not even close to it. it has never affected the tribunal, nor even affected anything more than a single universe, continuity does not depend on what u say im afraid , gs and ur argument is as valid as if i said that CURRENTLY all the ,multiverses and mega verses are said to be linked together which means that every abstract and creator other than TOAA in marvel iss bullshit because the presence is the only true omniversal creator as he has beings who have made entire multiverses, this easily proves that eternity, death, infinty, entropy. apiphany, tribunal, THOTU, and the pheonix force do not exist because IT IS NOT CURRENT CONTINUITY!!!, thas exactly the kin of stand point u have and its very wrong, given all that is there in the comics, {but ofcourse, even in current continuity, pheonix is an abstract embodying all unborn life and passion and is not connected in any way to the true creator as u n i know quite well}

Leon u know preacher is NOT in DC continuity so why do u say The Saint killed DC's God??? Isn't the DC god u are talking about The Word???

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, micheal is power and lucifer is will, they were the SONS OF GOD,

Excuse im the one who told you that so dont make out like you're informing me about something. Need i quote your past comments disputing the god given power each sibling had? No, theres been enough embarassment dished out these last few days.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the only reason this doesnt mae sense to u gs is because u think that god and the presence are the same, they are actually quite different, god is just ONE aspect of the presence, the presence is anything and everything, there is nuthing outside the presence except the great beast,

This post has made quite apparrent that you're the confused one Leon. My grasp on this subject is sufficient for me to argue effectively. Yours needs some work. You've got it completely mixed up. God isnt the aspect Leon (just listen carefully to what you're saying lol) the Presence is. Yahweh is God and the Presence is an aspect of Yahweh as are the Word and the Source. "God" is just a general term which can be used to refer to any of the aspects of Yahweh or even Yahweh himself.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer was never a servant to god, the very reason he fell from heaven was because he went agaisnt the master plan of the presence which god could not tolerate, he has beaten god many times at his own game , but is still in the grasp of the presence, and thas why he was followin THE GREAT PLAN, because even though he is beyond god now, he is still not beyond the presence,

Lucifer along with Michael were both created to eventually be gods successors. However before that time came about god needed to teach them how to sucessfully fulfill his role. He intended them both to serve him (as Michael does now so your arguments void from the start) and they were to learn through his guidance presumably. (Lucifer 39) That is why he told them to make a universe for him and he guided them through it as stated in Lucifer 16 pg 4.

Leon everything up until Lucifer making his own creation was part of the great plan. Even Lucifers rebellion was part of the great plan. This was all stated in Lucifer 39. So although ive corrected you on your god being an aspect issue it seems i also need to enlighten you on your view that he has beaten god at his own game. This quote support dismisses your views:

"First of all my sons you should know this. That i did not need you. The first flower of light could have been born without a seed.I had played it through a thousand times. I knew its growth and decay to a nicety. There was no need for a weaver to spin the light into suns. It was pregnant already with the forms which it would become. But i had to teach you your skills and there was no school. And if they were needed it was only because i created you. How would you look upon yourselves if you had no peers? No context for your actions? No mirrors into which to gaze? And how could you head or head off a rebellion if there were none to follow your banners? There is a reason for everything i do.

Ok Leon? Lucifer#39

Originally posted by leonheartmm
this is further justified by the fact that god has almost been killed by swamp thing, has left creation itself and WAS killed by saint of killers, if he had the ranlk of the presence, creation itself would probably have died out or there would have been serious impacts on creation, but that was not the case as god is not the presence in whole. and secondly the whole micheal creates matter and lucifer shapes it is a REPRESENTATION of the biblical ideas,

Ive already sorted out this god aspect nonsense so i need not address all of the above. Also the Saint of Killers incident happened in the Preacherverse and is a totally different continuity to the main DC one, so again that does not apply.

It is not a representation of biblical ideas but instead their roles in creation are based on kaballah ideas. Do some research into it and you'll find that out for yourself.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer and micheal were responsible for the original multiverse u know, thats how it is officially in dc and vertigo, god created two sons, they were the ones, who together created the entire multiverse{if not then who the heack created the multiverse gs?} {it should be noted that dc originally was a universe just like every other comic book titles, and lucifer and micheal and god were thought to rule the universe alone, but soon that wasnt eough for the writers to work with and the multiverse was given light, n since lucifer and micheal were responsible for creation, they were the makers of the classic multiverse , and currently lucifer has shown to be able to create a multiverse {and rule one as hell was also a multiverse, along with the one he currently rules}

I do not need to talk about this universe vs multiverse issue again because i have proved sufficiently that it was a universe that Lucifer and Michael helped create and it was a universe that Lucifer made with Michael for himself. Your comments about the writers has just shown me that this post like the majority of your posts are mostly speculation and personal opinion with very little solid fact content. The whole reason for going from a universe to a multiverse back to a universe was all explained in the introduction page of nearly every issue of Crisis on Infinite Earths. What you're going on about i really dont know, but dont try and play it off as fact.

Im totally correct about the universe thing. What you're forgetting is that the universe was turned into a multiverse due to outside forces it had absolutely nothing to do with Lucifer whatsoever hence the reason why he claims to have had a hand in making a universe in his series and why others say the same as my scans have shown.

Lucifer in his series as i have shown stated he had made and owned a universe for himself. There has been no outside intervention (like the one which had previously turned Yahwehs universe into a multiverse) therefore theres no reason for any of us to believe anything else. As for your comment on hell dont make me laugh Leon.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
with micheal dead, and remember, lucifer has never really died, even when he was tricked by fenris, he was shown to be outside the bounds of death and the endless, {the same endless that have jurisdiction over every multiverse } and he also CREATED the endless from scratch gs, think about that.

You really are confused arent you? lol. What do you mean the endless have control over every multiverse. DC is limited to a multiverse so unless you think the Endless have control over Marvel or Image im somewhat confused by your comments. Lucifer never created the Endless from scratch im afraid. As ive made very clear on this thread Lucifer and Michael werent needed as stated by Yahweh himself. They are not integral to creation, he merely allowed them to play a part because he knew that in the future he would want to leave creation so he needed an heir. So he allowed them to get involved as a way of teaching them. Everything would have formed just fine without them Lim afraid to inform you. No speculation just the words of Yahweh which ive been kind enough to post for you above. The Endless are the closest DC has to the abstracts in Marvel and we all know who created them dont we lol. Why are you trying to make this about Phoenix Leon? Dont ever talk waffle about me always bringing her up.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the crown as has been previously proven in all the threads u made{and u do seem to forget what happened in each rather easily and make urself believe it didnt exist}to be not the concious or god, not even close to it. it has never affected the tribunal, nor even affected anything more than a single universe,

Disproven by who? Certainly not you Leon. I think you need to acknowledge the difference between disagreeing with something and disproving it. The Crown by definition is where the consciousness of god resides. If Marvel didnt intend God or at least a supreme being to be involved with phoenix or their afterlife then they wouldnt have named it so. In fact they would even have it featured in the comics. The fact that Jean wears white in her phoenix role tells you its the real deal as that is the colour which represents the Crown in the real world, the fact that Jean's referred to as Tiphereth (an aspect of god, the heart and soul of creation) just further mounts up the evidence as does Phoenixs appearrance as one and the same as the Source in the crossover.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
continuity does not depend on what u say im afraid , gs and ur argument is as valid as if i said that CURRENTLY all the ,multiverses and mega verses are said to be linked together which means that every abstract and creator other than TOAA in marvel iss bullshit because the presence is the only true omniversal creator as he has beings who have made entire multiverses, this easily proves that eternity, death, infinty, entropy. apiphany, tribunal, THOTU, and the pheonix force do not exist because IT IS NOT CURRENT CONTINUITY!!!, thas exactly the kin of stand point u have and its very wrong, given all that is there in the comics,

You're right Leon, current continuity doesnt depend on what i say only the events of the comics dictate what is actually current continuity. As per current continuity we've had Eternity state that Phoenix is responsible for the life cycle of creation and is his creator, in the same comic it was shown that by harnessing the phoenix power you could rule supreme over all of the abstracts and The Living Tribunal. (Xmen Forever) We've also had the phoenix force called the energy of all creation ( F4 521 this year) and New Xmen showed that Jean and Phoenix were one and the same and that she served the Crown in a multiversal role, a caretaker of creation, who safeguarded the creation cycle. As for your "example" its poor and fails in its attempts not only because of your poor grasp of this subject (and just what current continuity entails) but also because none of it happened in the comics.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{but ofcourse, even in current continuity, pheonix is an abstract embodying all unborn life and passion and is not connected in any way to the true creator as u n i know quite well}

Leon you're being very immature here. Its a shame because you obviously have a passion for comics. Be adult about this and dont let personal dislike of a character lead you to discredit yourself in debates. We both know what phoenixes role is as stated in recent comics and as show in scans ive posted over the last few months. For you to deny this because you hate the character or through pride because you dont want to give in to me is ridiculous.

Nataku hates phoenix as well but at least he's got the right attitude:

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont believe that ur beeing done in by this pheonix nonesense too.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Oh, I hate Pheonix with a passion, but that doesn't change the fact that Claremont's viagra induced writing sprees are wrong. Same thing goes for Wolverine, just because he breaks all the limits set on him all the time, it still happens.

Just suck it up and get over yourself.

He hates phoenix, but he knows whats current continuity therefore he unwillingy accepts it. Thats objectivity. Learn from him.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You're forgetting that in crossovers the Phoenix Force is depicted as The Source and you havent made a mention of the White Crown Phoenix at all. The avatars/ the phoenixes draw their power from the Crown which is another name for the Presence.

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/TGEB/The Source(ThePhoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix (Jean)
Living Tribunal/Spectre

The ranking keeps going up.

Originally posted by kgkg
Amazing Presence = Phoenix Force 😄

The ranking keeps going up.

Phoenix Force is Marvels Source as was made quite clear in the crossover. In Marvel itself this was supported by phoenix being referred to as tiphereth and by the fact that its been stated that all creation stems from phoenix and draws sustenance from it. The Presence just like the Source and the Word are aspects of god. You should try reading DC Kg its really quite good. I took the advice of a few people on here and have read the whole of the Lucifer and Sandman series which deal with God, the brothers and other dc cosmics.

The phoenix force is the source - I think not more supposition based on ones wishes GS. 🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
The phoenix force is the source - I think not more supposition based on ones wishes GS. 🙂

That supposition line is getting tired mate. When you have sufficient counter material as opposed to immaterial word play then i'll give you the time of day 😱 😂