next gen consoles

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well the thing with nintendo was, its great, but its not giving the audience what "it wants", like you said they make great games, but are a little behind on the concept that a growing audience of gamers are more mature than the past decade.

They give their crowd what they want. They cater to those who are loyal fans and are easily accessible with that. They're not behind on anything.

You can't get more mature than Resident Evil's. As for people saying "Gamecube fans use RE's as an excuse" why not? It's their franchise now.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Overral the Nintendo fell short of its expectations for 2 generations, but the thing with nintendo fans, is they love it, or hate it.

N64 was a failure on some levels, they were still on a cartridge medium which were horridly expensive, and after mario 64, the quality of the games went down and down slowly.

It doesn't change the fact that Sony still charged people for the multitap well into their PS2 years. They haven't released a four port console. That's more expensive than having cartridges.

The games Nintendo put out that WERE excellent were better than most PS1 games. Or PS2 for that matter.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If I like sports games, and shooters, xbox is my destination.

If I want innovation, I would go for nintendo.

If I want variety and versatility, I'd go for sony.

These are all things that come to mind with consoles. I myself like the sony/pc combination.

Sony aren't versatile because they try to be, they're versatile because they're so hit and miss. They pump out so many games that it's hard not to be versatile. Most of those games are shit so being able to put out many different kinds of shit doesn't count for much with me.

-AC

Topics like this make me want to kill myself. On one hand you've got all the reasons as to why people are wrong, laid out on a silver platter by courteous fellows. They don't even have the manners to read a word of it, prefferring to dwell in petty fanboyism.

As for the next gen consoles, I've explained in a thread all too similar to this one that the 360 gets my vote. I own and have played to death Nintendos back catalog, so the only reason I will be buying a Revolution will be for the next Zelda, whenever that is.

The PS3 has so far been a pack of promises and little else. I remember the promises of the PS1 and PS2. We never saw half of the realisation of the promises Sony made. Their tech demos have been based on multi-million, best-case scenario estimates, so only two or three companies will be able to pull off the likes of the Killzone footage in games. Only the Blu-Ray technology and an inevitable Pro Evolution Soccer update has me interested. XBox 360 has so far proven itself the most with actual gameplay running off finished hardware, tested and presented realistically. Project Gotham is also the best racing game series next to burnout in my opinion and was sold as soon as I was promised, and shown an update.

They're all pretty strong, but the 360 wins with it's honesty and hasn't patronised gamers with tech specs, terraflops and actually takes into account smaller developers, who don't have the budget or resources that Sony, EA and the big hitters have.

One kink in your armour AC - Resident Evil isn't Gamecube exclusive. It'll be heading to PS2 soon it's pretty much done. Shockingly, Capcom have done an absolutely amazing job in converting it. The troubles with frametrate and texture resolution are very minor, if there are any at all. Absolutely amazing coders down at Capcom. It's one thing to make the best game in a long time, it's something else to completely re-write it for another consoles architecture. If only all porters could do such bang up jobs on their conversions. Was playing it yesterday again too. Best game ever next to Zelda: Ocarina in my opinion.

I was wanting to get an xbox360 for christmas, but was put off by the cost. I am going to wait until the xbox360 has been out for at least a year, as by that time the cost will have gone down and the best 360 games will just be starting to be released

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They give their crowd what they want.

As what all systems do and will always do, whether we agree with their decisions or not.

Money makes these systems go around, speculation, magazine ads, all add up to making money for ALL consoles.

Why can't the same be said for playstation, the people who own it say they have been given what they wanted.

I will however agree with the console itself being unreliable at times, though I've been blessed with one with no faults, others have had problems.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They cater to those who are loyal fans and are easily accessible with that.

Well then like I said, the fans of nintendo play nintendo, the ones who have "stuck with" the system for years.

My friends who have owned the current nintendo consoles also have had the prior ones to that, and many have gone over to the playstation.

Fanboyism does drive nintendo more than ANY OTHER console, why shouldn't it? Its been out for so long, why is zelda ALWAYS a hit? It could be the same old game, but people still buy it because of zelda.

Which is the same deal with GTA and Halo, fanboys.

I buy what suits me, and many, ,many EXTRAORDINARY games have been overlooked particularly on the playstation.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They're not behind on anything.

You by your own admission said that they aren't going by "what sells", that is what I'm talking about.

Nintendo is slowly reaching there, but xbox and playstation have left it in the dust.

Resident evil is a good example of such a game, but good ones like that are few and far between.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't get more mature than Resident Evil's.

Nintendo hasn't had too much problems with violence now, I can say myself.

But it has had quite a history of censoring, back in the Days of MK1, blood was so controversial, so what did nintendo do? They made sweat.

Guess which one sold more?

Duke nukem was toned down, as well as many games that simply weren't released for the nintendo, because they wanted to aim at a younger audience...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As for people saying "Gamecube fans use RE's as an excuse" why not? It's their franchise now.

I agree, but this did come from the playstation, in fact MANY of the games gamecube and xbox players own, came RIGHT from the playstation, after it was a success.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't change the fact that Sony still charged people for the multitap well into their PS2 years.

Yes, I'm not saying playstation is perfect by any means.

Why did xbox not come with a dvd player?

Why did nintendo make an sp very shortly after?

Why do heroes stay alive in comics?

money.

No different than the shitty US cars, companies need money, I wish I could buy a new comp, and not watch it go outdated within the same month.

So much for wishing.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They haven't released a four port console. That's more expensive than having cartridges.

Cartridges on the N64 were ABSURD.

We're talking 60 bucks a pop, there were great games, but sony was selling there's at thirty a pop.

Thats 2x the money.

You could get a mulitap adaptor for 30$, or get a used one for 10$ and save.

Like I said, xbox didn't come with a dvd player, and nintendo made an SP shortly after, people flocked to it.

Add to the fact that the best N64 games weren't even multi player.

Zelda and Mario didn't have a true multiplayer.

Marioparty was the best way to utilize it, that and sports.

Gauntlet and Banjo, sucked, as well as Donkey Kong.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The games Nintendo put out that WERE excellent were better than most PS1 games. Or PS2 for that matter.

Meh, IMO, playstation had great games on both consoles.

Nintendo had some on 64, but were few and far between, and far too expensive.

My playstation 2 games I'm proud of.

Half life, Red Faction, Timesplitters 2 and 3, MKDA and MKD, capcom vs snk 2. Twisted Metal, etc.

I had a unique taste, and I like all genres and variety.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sony aren't versatile because they try to be, they're versatile because they're so hit and miss.

No, I'm not just talking about game versatility, sony has versatility hands down.

CD's, Dvd's, Games, Backwards compatibility for Memory card, controllers and every game, decent online.

Nintendo was just games, and xbox had better hardware, but no versatility.

Quality, quantity, and variety.

I enjoyed many hours utilizing my playstation to its fullest, and still do.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They pump out so many games that it's hard not to be versatile.

This is a common diss on the playstation thats no different than the "nintendo is/are kiddy games".

More games, I like my favorite game, but if I had to play it all day, every day...

See what I mean?

Problem with N64.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Most of those games are shit so being able to put out many different kinds of shit doesn't count for much with me.

I agree that all systems have their "shit", but I select and choose what best suits me...

I recommend that for everyone...

Originally posted by eleveninches
I was wanting to get an xbox360 for christmas, but was put off by the cost. I am going to wait until the xbox360 has been out for at least a year, as by that time the cost will have gone down and the best 360 games will just be starting to be released

I shall be doing the same.

I think I'll get a couple of PSP games for christmas and leave it at that.

I'll have Pro Evolution Soccer 5 to play with for a year at least anyways.

I really like the PSP, shame its so expensive or it wouldn't be so underrated...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Gauntlet and Banjo, sucked, as well as Donkey Kong.

My playstation 2 games I'm proud of.

Half life, Red Faction, Timesplitters 2 and 3, MKDA and MKD, capcom vs snk 2. Twisted Metal, etc.

Craziness man. Banjo was awesome.

Timesplitters 2 is multi console (and has suffered, like many games, by having to be developed on the PS2 first, because the other way round wouldn't be as feasible).

Goldeneye and Perfect Dark are still my favourite FPS's to this day- Red Faction was quite a letdown I thought. The same scenery throughout, no variety or imagination.

Half Life is a PC port.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Was playing it yesterday again too. Best game ever next to Zelda: Ocarina in my opinion.

I think RE4 is the best game ever, it's unbelievable.

It's a pity that money came into it so flagrantly and lost Nintendo the RE licence, because they are my favourite games.

They won't suffer too much though. They let Microsoft have Rare (as Microsoft are the Chelsea of consoles), and now they've lost this.

They'll have other plans.

For me, the Cube hasn't had lots of games I've loved- maybe 8-10.

This is compared, though, to Xbox- no games; and Sony- one game, Pro Evolution Soccer.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Why can't the same be said for playstation, the people who own it say they have been given what they wanted.

I will however agree with the console itself being unreliable at times, though I've been blessed with one with no faults, others have had problems.

You said Gamecube are behind on it, they're not. Case closed there then.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well then like I said, the fans of nintendo play nintendo, the ones who have "stuck with" the system for years.

My friends who have owned the current nintendo consoles also have had the prior ones to that, and many have gone over to the playstation.

Many Nintendo fans "stick with" the systems because they're the most reliable technically and in terms of games. Sony fans undeniably stick with Sony because they're Sony.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Fanboyism does drive nintendo more than ANY OTHER console, why shouldn't it? Its been out for so long, why is zelda ALWAYS a hit? It could be the same old game, but people still buy it because of zelda.

Because it's always good. Mario is always good. Resident Evil is always excellent. Metroid is always excellent.

I'm not saying if the games were shit that some Nintendo fans would stop buying em. You always get some pointless die-hards. The point is, as far as fanboys go. Sony has the pick of the litter. Sony steals a bit from everyone so it's always viewed as the more versatile choice, despite hardly coming up with anything revolutionary.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I buy what suits me, and many, ,many EXTRAORDINARY games have been overlooked particularly on the playstation.

Why might that be? Because for every decent game there's 50 shit ones? Yes.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You by your own admission said that they aren't going by "what sells", that is what I'm talking about.

Nintendo is slowly reaching there, but xbox and playstation have left it in the dust.

So? Gamecube has better games than both. Bill Gates was only concerned with becoming the biggest selling. Sony and Microsoft can boast about sales all they want. Nintendo will always come out with a better game and show that it doesn't matter. They've got ENOUGH sales.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Resident evil is a good example of such a game, but good ones like that are few and far between.

Xbox and PS2 have never had such a game.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Which seems to be the premise for most nintendo fans.

Nintendo hasn't had too much problems with violence now, I can say myself.

But it has had quite a history of censoring, back in the Days of MK1, blood was so controversial, so what did nintendo do? They made sweat.

Guess which one sold more?

Why are you referring to sales? Avril Lavigne sells multi-platinum. She's still shit.

I had MK1 on SNES, it had blood in it. The blood was optional. So you obviously got some Sunday market version.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Duke nukem was toned down, as well as many games that simply weren't released for the nintendo, because they wanted to aim at a younger audience...

I had an uncensored, 18 rated version of Duke Nukem on mine. Don't know where you're getting this from.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I agree, but this did come from the playstation, in fact MANY of the games gamecube and xbox players own, came RIGHT from the playstation, after it was a success.

Sony got as far as Resident Evil 3 (which was incredibly mediocre). They couldn't push the boundaries, so they sold it to DREAMCAST who made Code Veronica. Then Sony stole it back years later and took the credit. They couldn't do it on their own. Of course, in 2002 Nintendo get a phone call hmmm.

Sony: Nintendo? It's Sony.
Nintendo: What do you want?
Sony: We can't make games better and we're losing money. Buy our Resi's off us, they're not gonna get any better.
Nintendo: Alright.

Couple years later Sony want Resi 4 back so they LOOK (in the eyes of Sony fanboys) like they're as good. When the game is shitter.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, I'm not saying playstation is perfect by any means.

Why did xbox not come with a dvd player?

Why did nintendo make an sp very shortly after?

Why do heroes stay alive in comics?

money.

No different than the shitty US cars, companies need money, I wish I could buy a new comp, and not watch it go outdated within the same month.

So much for wishing.

Exactly, because Nintendo very very rarely pull those stunts. Gamecube is purely for games because that's what Nintendo do. They're not a multi-software company. They want to give gamers the best and they do. They don't see the point in putting two ports in, why? More money? They want gamers to have money to spend on games, not accessories.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Cartridges on the N64 were ABSURD.

We're talking 60 bucks a pop, there were great games, but sony was selling there's at thirty a pop.

Sony games were as expensive here and unlike the cartridges, the discs used to fail. Lest we forget Sony hyped up the PS2 discs as being cool and purple. Years down the road there's malfunctions and the purple discs won't run. Nintendo's returns factory has the highest unemployment rate in the games industry.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Thats 2x the money.

You could get a mulitap adaptor for 30$, or get a used one for 10$ and save.

Like I said, xbox didn't come with a dvd player, and nintendo made an SP shortly after, people flocked to it.

Add to the fact that the best N64 games weren't even multi player.

Zelda and Mario didn't have a true multiplayer.

Marioparty was the best way to utilize it, that and sports.

Gauntlet and Banjo, sucked, as well as Donkey Kong.

Banjo didn't suck, but that's subjective. Nor did Donkey Kong.

Stop emphasising money, it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
My playstation 2 games I'm proud of.

Half life, Red Faction, Timesplitters 2 and 3, MKDA and MKD, capcom vs snk 2. Twisted Metal, etc.

Half Life is a PC game, Red Faction one borrowed heavily from it but was a great game. Timesplitters series stole most of what's great about it from N64's Goldeneye, MKDA and MKD wouldn't be around were it not for Nintendo. Lest we forget Metal Gear, the saga that started on the original Nintendo.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, I'm not just talking about game versatility, sony has versatility hands down.

CD's, Dvd's, Games, Backwards compatibility for Memory card, controllers and every game, decent online.

Exactly! You just named 6 things. One of them is "games", which is what we're discussing. Sony fan boys are impressed that their GAMES console plays CDs and DVDs. I'm not, because that's not what I bought it for. Why are you claiming Sony are great because of stuff that has no relevance to gaming? Bit pointless. They don't have gaming versatility. They chuck out a hundred games and have the odd good one.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Nintendo was just games, and xbox had better hardware, but no versatility.

Quality, quantity, and variety.

Nintendo was just games? Exactly, haha. Of course it's just games. We're discussing games and games consoles. You Sony guys are just impressed by Sony cramming everything on the machine that you don't need.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I enjoyed many hours utilizing my playstation to its fullest, and still do.

Great. I didn't ever put a DVD into my Playstation and think "Wow, what awesome games."

Because that's not relevant.

-AC

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
As what all systems do and will always do, whether we agree with their decisions or not.

Money makes these systems go around, speculation, magazine ads, all add up to making money for ALL consoles.

Why can't the same be said for playstation, the people who own it say they have been given what they wanted.

I will however agree with the console itself being unreliable at times, though I've been blessed with one with no faults, others have had problems.

Well then like I said, the fans of nintendo play nintendo, the ones who have "stuck with" the system for years.

My friends who have owned the current nintendo consoles also have had the prior ones to that, and many have gone over to the playstation.

Fanboyism does drive nintendo more than ANY OTHER console, why shouldn't it? Its been out for so long, why is zelda ALWAYS a hit? It could be the same old game, but people still buy it because of zelda.

Which is the same deal with GTA and Halo, fanboys.

I buy what suits me, and many, ,many EXTRAORDINARY games have been overlooked particularly on the playstation.

You by your own admission said that they aren't going by "what sells", that is what I'm talking about.

Nintendo is slowly reaching there, but xbox and playstation have left it in the dust.

Resident evil is a good example of such a game, but good ones like that are few and far between.

Which seems to be the premise for most nintendo fans.

Nintendo hasn't had too much problems with violence now, I can say myself.

But it has had quite a history of censoring, back in the Days of MK1, blood was so controversial, so what did nintendo do? They made sweat.

Guess which one sold more?

Duke nukem was toned down, as well as many games that simply weren't released for the nintendo, because they wanted to aim at a younger audience...

I agree, but this did come from the playstation, in fact MANY of the games gamecube and xbox players own, came RIGHT from the playstation, after it was a success.

Yes, I'm not saying playstation is perfect by any means.

Why did xbox not come with a dvd player?

Why did nintendo make an sp very shortly after?

Why do heroes stay alive in comics?

money.

No different than the shitty US cars, companies need money, I wish I could buy a new comp, and not watch it go outdated within the same month.

So much for wishing.

Cartridges on the N64 were ABSURD.

We're talking 60 bucks a pop, there were great games, but sony was selling there's at thirty a pop.

Thats 2x the money.

You could get a mulitap adaptor for 30$, or get a used one for 10$ and save.

Like I said, xbox didn't come with a dvd player, and nintendo made an SP shortly after, people flocked to it.

Add to the fact that the best N64 games weren't even multi player.

Zelda and Mario didn't have a true multiplayer.

Marioparty was the best way to utilize it, that and sports.

Gauntlet and Banjo, sucked, as well as Donkey Kong.

Meh, IMO, playstation had great games on both consoles.

Nintendo had some on 64, but were few and far between, and far too expensive.

My playstation 2 games I'm proud of.

Half life, Red Faction, Timesplitters 2 and 3, MKDA and MKD, capcom vs snk 2. Twisted Metal, etc.

I had a unique taste, and I like all genres and variety.

No, I'm not just talking about game versatility, sony has versatility hands down.

CD's, Dvd's, Games, Backwards compatibility for Memory card, controllers and every game, decent online.

Nintendo was just games, and xbox had better hardware, but no versatility.

Quality, quantity, and variety.

I enjoyed many hours utilizing my playstation to its fullest, and still do.

This is a common diss on the playstation thats no different than the "nintendo is/are kiddy games".

More games, I like my favorite game, but if I had to play it all day, every day...

See what I mean?

Problem with N64.

I agree that all systems have their "shit", but I select and choose what best suits me...

I recommend that for everyone...

✅ I agree with most everything you said.

Timesplitters 2 bugged me actually. Something about the aiming system. I couldn't aim for shit, I was awful at it.

I hated the way you'd have to hold the stick as you aimed, instead of looking, moving your view, and having the stick centre again. It was just awkward. Shooting games should just be a cross in the middle of the screen, and ytou move the screen. Timesplitters made you move the aiming reticle and keep the screen static until it got near the edge. It was so awkward.

FPS's have been crap on consoles anyway. Black looks pretty good though.

My top favourite PS2 games of all time would have to be:

1) Pro Evolution Soccer (the best sports game I've ever played - easily the best multiplayer game of the current generation)

2) Grand Theft Auto - call me mainstream, I don't care. Dunno whether or not this should be classed as PS2 only. So what.

3) Ico - Anyone who likes Zelda and something different track this down now. Anyone whos played it says they love it. If you don't know what it is, put down your shitty Need For Bling Underground and sort yourself out.

4) God Of War - Loads of fun, awesome characters and spot on difficulty. Just superb.

5) Resident Evil 4 - This is actually my fave game of the lot, but it's on Gamecube, but seeing as it's coming on PS2 anyway, I'll throw it in anyway because it's the best game ever.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Craziness man. Banjo was awesome.

Timesplitters 2 is multi console (and has suffered, like many games, by having to be developed on the PS2 first, because the other way round wouldn't be as feasible).

Goldeneye and Perfect Dark are still my favourite FPS's to this day- Red Faction was quite a letdown I thought. The same scenery throughout, no variety or imagination.

Half Life is a PC port.

See what I mean?

It's already being called a PS2 game and it will go on Sony-Fans list as to why the PS2 is great.

It's looked upon as the most versatile because it steals everything. Resident Evil 4 is a Gamecube game. Lets never forget this.

-AC

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Timesplitters 2 bugged me actually. Something about the aiming system. I couldn't aim for shit, I was awful at it.

I hated the way you'd have to hold the stick as you aimed, instead of looking, moving your view, and having the stick centre again. It was just awkward. Shooting games should just be a cross in the middle of the screen, and ytou move the screen. Timesplitters made you move the aiming reticle and keep the screen static until it got near the edge. It was so awkward.

FPS's have been crap on consoles anyway. Black looks pretty good though.

I totally agree with the Timesplitters 2 complaint. I couldn't get use to that.

But about the FPS on consoles--not all of them are bad. Halo series? Sure, you may not like them, but you can't argue with the millions of us who do. 😉

I can.

Halo is shit. All the realism in the world just to have to stand there holding the trigger down and strafe a whole lot to kill your opponent.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
See what I mean?

It's already being called a PS2 game and it will go on Sony-Fans list as to why the PS2 is great.

It's looked upon as the most versatile because it steals everything. Resident Evil 4 is a Gamecube game. Lets never forget this.

-AC

However it gets versatile, whether it be by stealing everything, or by pumping out so many games, it is versatile, and you can't really deny it.

Although I enjoy playing on all the current gen systems, I have to admit that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I can.

Halo is shit. All the realism in the world just to have to stand there holding the trigger down and strafe a whole lot to kill your opponent.

-AC

Well, that's what I mean. You may not like it, but there are millions who do, so the game must have done something right.

Resident Evil 4 is a PS2 game though, it is no longer a Gamecube exclusive. I own a Cube with Resi 4, and I'm a bit annoyed about the bonus content the PS2-only dossers are gonna get (The Ada mission) but that's the way the cookie crumbles. It still looks better on the cube despite the amazing job Capcom have done on making a bin-lorry of a PS2 console pur like a Testarossa for Resi 4. And I love the big A button. Perfect controls for Resi.

PS2 hasn't stolen anything, really. If anything, it's giving huge success to a game that deserves it, on a console that can deliver it, rather than a console that "nobody wants." If you get my drift.

Halo isn't THAT simplistic either, not between two good opponents or more.

The single player in Halo is abysmal, always has been, and likely always will be. Multiplayer is fantastic though. Reminds me a little of Goldeneye it gets so good sometimes. Halo 2 is less successful.

Originally posted by hotsauce6548
However it gets versatile, whether it be by stealing everything, or by pumping out so many games, it is versatile, and you can't really deny it.

Although I enjoy playing on all the current gen systems, I have to admit that.

That's not being versatile though, that's waiting for everyone to bring out great games (aka Nintendo) then scrounging off them.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Resident Evil 4 is a PS2 game though, it is no longer a Gamecube exclusive. I own a Cube with Resi 4, and I'm a bit annoyed about the bonus content the PS2-only dossers are gonna get (The Ada mission) but that's the way the cookie crumbles. It still looks better on the cube despite the amazing job Capcom have done on making a bin-lorry of a PS2 console pur like a Testarossa for Resi 4. And I love the big A button. Perfect controls for Resi.

It was created on the Cube, therefore it's a Cube game. I could perform a spot on cover of Paranoid Android, it's not my song.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
PS2 hasn't stolen anything, really. If anything, it's giving huge success to a game that deserves it, on a console that can deliver it, rather than a console that "nobody wants." If you get my drift.

Victor just sent me the video of Resi 4 on PS2, it's shit. Nothing compared to the Cube. PS2 fans will say it is though, despite it clearly not being.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Halo isn't THAT simplistic either, not between two good opponents or more.

The single player in Halo is abysmal, always has been, and likely always will be. Multiplayer is fantastic though. Reminds me a little of Goldeneye it gets so good sometimes. Halo 2 is less successful.

Every shot counts in Goldeneye. You could pelt someone in the head with a machine gun in Halo and it does f*ck all.

-AC

Originally posted by hotsauce6548
Well, that's what I mean. You may not like it, but there are millions who do, so the game must have done something right.

Yes, appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Like Robbie Williams.