Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Goodluck, to be honest I expected better from you Shaky...this really is first grade.
What are you talking about? If you have a personal problem with that site, I'll find another one. Fundamentally Paul changed what Jesus started. The bible its self shows this. I'm sure you have founds ways around all of these conflicts; I would just like to see some of them. The truth comes out when people are persuaded to tell what they believe.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_GavOkay puppet boy, tell me where you got this idea for your god and don't tell me it was from Moses, or Noah, or Jesus. You're following traditions and that is all. It's spoon fed to you and you gobble it up real good, just as the early fathers such as Constantine wanted you too.. Great job!
If anyones a puppet...its you...you seem to dance across the forum occasionally posting something to the delight of some of the more established posters of the board...you then scurry off until they need you again...
Maybe one day you'll be a real boy.... 😉
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Okay puppet boy, tell me where you got this idea for your god and don't tell me it was from Moses, or Noah, or Jesus. You're following traditions and that is all. It's spoon fed to you and you gobble it up real good, just as the early fathers such as Constantine wanted you too.. Great job!Maybe one day you'll be a real boy.... 😉
Stop it, please. You can debate without calling names.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What are you talking about? If you have a personal problem with that site, I'll find another one. Fundamentally Paul changed what Jesus started. The bible its self shows this. I'm sure you have founds ways around all of these conflicts; I would just like to see some of them. The truth comes out when people are persuaded to tell what they believe.
Go on then, present the conflicts.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Okay puppet boy, tell me where you got this idea for your god and don't tell me it was from Moses, or Noah, or Jesus. You're following traditions and that is all. It's spoon fed to you and you gobble it up real good, just as the early fathers such as Constantine wanted you too.. Great job!Maybe one day you'll be a real boy.... 😉
It is? Oh... I see...thanks for telling me how I found what I believed in...
I'm sorry... Really am.. 😮
But it's true.
You're following a system that was started long ago. It wasn't started with love in mind either. It was about control. After the Roman Empire fell, then there was a new strategy and that was about building and taking people not for war in the name of the Empire(s), but taking the Empire(s) in the name of God.
And so it is, even until this day.
Such a master mind, this strategy was! People fear god more than emperors or leaders. And if god speaks through one of them, then you better watch out! He is god on earth!
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I'm sorry... Really am.. 😮But it's true.
You're following a system that was started long ago. It wasn't started with love in mind either. It was about control. After the Roman Empire fell, then there was a new strategy and that was about building and taking people not for war in the name of the Empire(s), but taking the Empire(s) in the name of God.
And so it is, even until this day.
Such a master mind, this strategy was! People fear god more than emperors or leaders.
I'm sorry, but analyze that entire paragraph until you go...oh wait...that applies to me aswell.
vicar of God." -Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary
"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." - On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".
"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.
-These words appeared in the Roman Canon Law: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.-I?i the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII Cum inter, ***. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685.
-Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."
-Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."- Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.
.-Pope Nicholas I declared that "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man. - Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.
Not stated by god, but by mere men.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
vicar of God." -Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." - On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".
"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
"The Pope takes the place of [B]Jesus Christ on earth
...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.-These words appeared in the Roman Canon Law: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.-I?i the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII Cum inter, ***. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685.
-Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."
-Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."- Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.
.-Pope Nicholas I declared that "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man. - Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.
Not stated by god, but by mere men. [/B]
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I'm sorry... Really am.. 😮But it's true.
You're following a system that was started long ago. It wasn't started with love in mind either. It was about control. After the Roman Empire fell, then there was a new strategy and that was about building and taking people not for war in the name of the Empire(s), but taking the Empire(s) in the name of God.
And so it is, even until this day.
Such a master mind, this strategy was! People fear god more than emperors or leaders. And if god speaks through one of them, then you better watch out! He is god on earth!
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I'm sorry, but analyze that entire paragraph until you go...oh wait...that applies to me aswell.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Go on then, present the conflicts...
Paul says:Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.Jesus says:
Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name, saying, . . . `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.
It sounds like Jesus was warning his followers about Paul.
Paul says:Eph.1
[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Rom.4
[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.Jesus says:
Matt.6
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Two is a good place to start.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It sounds like Jesus was warning his followers about Paul.
He said that some people would come who were false prophets and one of the things they would say was "the end is near" but right before that he says they will claim "i am he".
He is talking about people who come and pretend to be the Messiah- such as that bloke from America who's followers put 666 on their body. He says: "I am he," and "the end is near". Paul never claims to be Jesus.
Indeed, Paul says in the letter to the Romans "salvation is nearer now than when we first believed"- he does not say I am the Messiah. You could argue that Paul is referring to what Jesus was saying- about Revelation being close at hand.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Two is a good place to start.
I don't even understand how the second one can be seen as a contraction...
Paul says we are able to receive salvation due to Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus says that we should forgive each other, and the Father in Heaven wants us to forgive each other...There is no contradiction there...lets remember, Jesus described himself as both the High Priest and the Lamb...a reference to Yum Kippur...the day of atonement. Jesus stated that his sacrifice atoned for the sins of man- Paul says it in the first verse there...again, no contradiction.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
He said that some people would come who were false prophets and one of the things they would say was "the end is near" but right before that he says they will claim "i am he".He is talking about people who come and pretend to be the Messiah- such as that bloke from America who's followers put 666 on their body. He says: "I am he," and "the end is near". Paul never claims to be Jesus.
Indeed, Paul says in the letter to the Romans "salvation is nearer now than when we first believed"- he does not say I am the Messiah. You could argue that Paul is referring to what Jesus was saying- about Revelation being close at hand.
The first one was just a tease. 😉 No one really knows what Jesus said. The first writings where done 40 to 60 years after his death, and there were no newspapers at the time to keep the accounts straight.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I don't even understand how the second one can be seen as a contraction...Paul says we are able to receive salvation due to Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus says that we should forgive each other, and the Father in Heaven wants us to forgive each other...There is no contradiction there...lets remember, Jesus described himself as both the High Priest and the Lamb...a reference to Yum Kippur...the day of atonement. Jesus stated that his sacrifice atoned for the sins of man- Paul says it in the first verse there...again, no contradiction.
Which way is the way to salvation; through Jesus, or forgiving your fellow man? Or is there two ways to salvation?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
He said that some people would come who were false prophets and one of the things they would say was "the end is near" but right before that he says they will claim "i am he".
And doesn't that strike you as the most obvious response? I mean, don't you guys put even an iota of thought into it? This is your eternal souls on the line, after all?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The first one was just a tease. 😉 No one really knows what Jesus said. The first writings where done 40 to 60 years after his death, and there were no newspapers at the time to keep the accounts straight.
No it wasn't you were being serious. However, unbeknownst to your goodself this sort of stuff is taught in fresher's week! There is nothing true, good or half-correct in that entire website. Cutting and pasting small snippits of peoples words and then using them against each other is pathetic- as is the the next example.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Which way is the way to salvation; through Jesus, or forgiving your fellow man? Or is there two ways to salvation?
Again you are totally mistaken. Forgiving others is not how we are saved but is a way in which we can earn salvation. Jesus said that he died for our sins- Paul said that Jesus died for our sins. There is no discrepancy...you are ignoring that.
Oh and there is most certainly not two ways presented in that passage.
Originally posted by Devil King
And doesn't that strike you as the most obvious response? I mean, don't you guys put even an iota of thought into it? This is your eternal souls on the line, after all?
No your right DK- some of the worlds greatest minds and thinkers who were Christian really never gave it even the slightest of thoughts...people who are vastly more intelligent than you think you are continue, even today to be fooled and misled by what you so correctly evaluated.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
No it wasn't you were being serious. However, unbeknownst to your goodself this sort of stuff is taught in fresher's week! There is nothing true, good or half-correct in that entire website. Cutting and pasting small snippits of peoples words and then using them against each other is pathetic- as is the the next example.Again you are totally mistaken. Forgiving others is not how we are saved but is a way in which we can earn salvation. Jesus said that he died for our sins- Paul said that Jesus died for our sins. There is no discrepancy...you are ignoring that.
Oh and there is most certainly not two ways presented in that passage.
So, we can earn salvation? Paul says that we cannot earn salvation.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I can? 😕*walks around in a daze*..
Nah, puppet boy's a nice name.......lol
An even nicer name is "competent." Please add in some facts or even educated logic. "Puppet boy" doesn't bring much to the table. 😉
Someone earlier talked about when the Gospels were written. The Gospel of Mark is supposed to be the oldest of the Gospels and Biblical and secular scholars seem to think it was written around 64 AD. While it is probable that few, if any, of Jesus' original followers were still alive at this time considering what the average lifespan was then, it's a little naive to think that the Gospels that are now in the Bible were the very first recordings of anything Jesus said. Jesus had such an impact on people that, if nothing else, oral tradition would preserve his teachings. For the longest time, The Odyssey was only told through oral tradition and few people dispute that the printed version we can now read differs all that much from what was passed through word of mouth.
Also, the Gospel of Mark isn't very poetic or fond of figurative language. It is written as a credible account and quite a few scholars have concluded that due to how descriptive it is, either an eye-witness to the events wrote it, or someone dictating what an eye-witness told them.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, we can earn salvation? Paul says that we cannot earn salvation.
Lets look at Jesus' entire message.
You can only gain salvation through accepting him as your saviour.
Paul's entire message.
You can only gain salvation through accepting Jesus as your saviour.
However, after accepting Jesus there are still things that he would like you to do- such as love your neighbour, forgive each other, etc etc.
Again there is no discrepancy.