Originally posted by Deus Ex
Agreed. If you want to shout out your opinion, whatever. But when you keep coming back like this, you're obviously either playing for attention or not sure what the difference is between having an opinion and taking a stance in a debate.
I will grudgingly take a stance in this debate if I have to. Let me start out with my reasons why sidious is very powerful.
Sidious was made out by lucas to be the ultimate villian, hes so strong in the darkside his body his consumed by it. I know you dont like the ROTS novel but whether or not you like it doesnt matter because its lucas approved. To start out heres some quotes from the book on sidious( told by dooku who is no easy man to please) an "event horizon on the force" and that he was "beyond power". The message seems to be clear.
Lets look at what he did in the prequels, he took over the republic...no other sith in history that we know of has done that. Naga Sadow failed, Exar Kun failed, Revan almost did it but failed...Marka Ragnos never dared to try. Sidious killed 3 great jedi masters in about two seconds, and yes they were highly skilled - mace didnt bring them along as cannon fodder. Heres were a controversy begins in the fight with mace, the book pretty much made it clear that palpatine won(When he sensed mace and co. coming he smiled..), as for the movie its up in the air..I still think palpatine was playing with mace but that debate will probably never be solved. But moving on he went on to (at the very least) fight yoda himself to a draw, the 900 year old grandmaster of the jedi(who many believe to be the strongest jedi of all time, its stated in wikipedia). And remember this is before all the jedi artifacts of the temple were plundered and added to palpatines strength.
Also remember that is pre DE sidious, if I use DE sidious than my side of the argument is strengthened further. I have to leave, perhaps Ill continue tonight If I have time.. then Ill be happy to argue why sidious would win against a set opponent. I *believe* sidious would win against all sith lords except ragnos and maybe exar kun.
Sidious was made out by lucas to be the ultimate villian, hes so strong in the darkside his body his consumed by it. I know you dont like the ROTS novel but whether or not you like it doesnt matter because its lucas approved. To start out heres some quotes from the book on sidious( told by dooku who is no easy man to please) an "event horizon on the force" and that he was "beyond power". The message seems to be clear.
The movies and GL's statements are still most cannon, any source that contradicts them is not admissible for proof. The book did so in many ways (Anakin entering the scene before Mace disarmed Sidious, Kit Fisto getting decapitated instead of getting sliced across the chest, that was only a few), therefore it remains as a rather shaky source of Sidious's power. You don't even know much about the ancient sith lords and how THEY were described. Look in the (Ulic vs Revan thread, you'll see a whole ton of info on the ancient sith lords.)
Lets look at what he did in the prequels, he took over the republic...no other sith in history that we know of has done that. Naga Sadow failed, Exar Kun failed, Revan almost did it but failed...Marka Ragnos never dared to try
Sidious was the only visible sith left. All the other sith lived in "The Golden Era of the Sith" thousands of years before Sidious, a time where the republic was constantly at war and all the sith were trying to overthrow each other with all means. Hiring an army to help kill the Jedi when they were taken completely off guard is considered an excellent tactical move, not a move that makes you a uber powerful sith and certainly doesn't make Sidious more powerful than the ancient sith lords, since the challenge of taking over the republic for them was MUCH harder than the challenge Sidious faced. This is like saying I shot the world's best archer from point-blank range while he was taking a nap and I am suddenly the world's best archer.
Sidious killed 3 great jedi masters in about two seconds, and yes they were highly skilled - mace didnt bring them along as cannon fodder. Heres were a controversy begins in the fight with mace, the book pretty much made it clear that palpatine won(When he sensed mace and co. coming he smiled..), as for the movie its up in the air..I still think palpatine was playing with mace but that debate will probably never be solved. But moving on he went on to (at the very least) fight yoda himself to a draw, the 900 year old grandmaster of the jedi(who many believe to be the strongest jedi of all time, its stated in wikipedia). And remember this is before all the jedi artifacts of the temple were plundered and added to palpatines strength.
Indeed, he did, but Exar Kun was easily able to defeat Vodo Baas, a 600 year old jedi master, extrememly wise in the force and a lightsaber grandmaster in under 10 seconds after toying with him (I got this information from Lord Darkstar and I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you where he got the info from). Exar pwned him with ease. As for the Mace/Sidious fight, GL has yet to declare if Sidious dropped the fight or not, but the movie and the book portrayed it differently, but we have to go with the movie, since, as I have mentioned before, GL's statements and movies override the books anyday. And as for Sidious/Yoda fight, the movies clearly protrayed Yoda as superior. How? First of all, Sidious tries to escape from Yoda, second, after the duelled with sabers, the next scene automatically cuts to the scene where Sidious threw pods at Yoda on high ground. Why would he need to do that if he could take Yoda on level ground? The only reason is that he can't. Even with the high ground, Yoda managed to pull back and catch his lightning. When it exploded, Yoda was on the edge, Sidious was in the middle, so as a result, Yoda's fall was worse. Throw them in a flat plain desert and Yoda would likely win. And wikipedia stated that Revan was also the most powerful sith lord, and many other things you might not want to believe. It is not a bad source, but not 100% accurate either. Since NJO Luke is clearly more powerful as a Jedi Master. He could cloak planets, create black holes, bring down starships from space and a whole ton of other stuff that clearly are superior to Yoda's abilities.
Also remember that is pre DE sidious, if I use DE sidious than my side of the argument is strengthened further. I have to leave, perhaps Ill continue tonight If I have time.. then Ill be happy to argue why sidious would win against a set opponent. I *believe* sidious would win against all sith lords except ragnos and maybe exar kun.
We are not talking about DE Sidious (which is a whole different story), were talking about ROTS Sidious, and as I see it, he doesn't stand a chance against most of the ancient sith lords. The ancient sith were so much more in fighting shape due to fact that they were constantly at war. Sidious was known for his skills of deception and manipulation, not necessarily his fighting power.
Originally posted by OBI-Ninja
The movies and GL's statements are still most cannon, any source that contradicts them is not admissible for proof. The book did so in many ways (Anakin entering the scene before Mace disarmed Sidious, Kit Fisto getting decapitated instead of getting sliced across the chest, that was only a few), therefore it remains as a rather shaky source of Sidious's power. You don't even know much about the ancient sith lords and how THEY were described. Look in the (Ulic vs Revan thread, you'll see a whole ton of info on the ancient sith lords.)Sidious was the only visible sith left. All the other sith lived in "The Golden Era of the Sith" thousands of years before Sidious, a time where the republic was constantly at war and all the sith were trying to overthrow each other with all means. Hiring an army to help kill the Jedi when they were taken completely off guard is considered an excellent tactical move, not a move that makes you a uber powerful sith and certainly doesn't make Sidious more powerful than the ancient sith lords, since the challenge of taking over the republic for them was MUCH harder than the challenge Sidious faced. This is like saying I shot the world's best archer from point-blank range while he was taking a nap and I am suddenly the world's best archer.
Indeed, he did, but Exar Kun was easily able to defeat Vodo Baas, a 600 year old jedi master, extrememly wise in the force and a lightsaber grandmaster in under 10 seconds after toying with him (I got this information from Lord Darkstar and I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you where he got the info from). Exar pwned him with ease. As for the Mace/Sidious fight, GL has yet to declare if Sidious dropped the fight or not, but the movie and the book portrayed it differently, but we have to go with the movie, since, as I have mentioned before, GL's statements and movies override the books anyday. And as for Sidious/Yoda fight, the movies clearly protrayed Yoda as superior. How? First of all, Sidious tries to escape from Yoda, second, after the duelled with sabers, the next scene automatically cuts to the scene where Sidious threw pods at Yoda on high ground. Why would he need to do that if he could take Yoda on level ground? The only reason is that he can't. Even with the high ground, Yoda managed to pull back and catch his lightning. When it exploded, Yoda was on the edge, Sidious was in the middle, so as a result, Yoda's fall was worse. Throw them in a flat plain desert and Yoda would likely win. And wikipedia stated that Revan was also the most powerful sith lord, and many other things you might not want to believe. It is not a bad source, but not 100% accurate either. Since NJO Luke is clearly more powerful as a Jedi Master. He could cloak planets, create black holes, bring down starships from space and a whole ton of other stuff that clearly are superior to Yoda's abilities.
We are not talking about DE Sidious (which is a whole different story), were talking about ROTS Sidious, and as I see it, he doesn't stand a chance against most of the ancient sith lords. The ancient sith were so much more in fighting shape due to fact that they were constantly at war. Sidious was known for his skills of deception and manipulation, not necessarily his fighting power.
Damn. You covered everything I wanted to say. Thank you so much. I... I feel a tear coming on.
No, really. Very well said.
GV = owned
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious was made out by lucas to be the ultimate villian, hes so strong in the darkside his body his consumed by it. I know you dont like the ROTS novel but whether or not you like it doesnt matter because its lucas approved. To start out heres some quotes from the book on sidious( told by dooku who is no easy man to please) an "event horizon on the force" and that he was "beyond power". The message seems to be clear.
a) Sidious is Lucas ultimate villian - Did you realize that this is an EU subforum ?
b) Sidious is so strong that he is consumed by channeling some power for a little bit of Sith lightning blocked by a lightsaber where other people were able to keep their natural shape while blowing up stars with a hand movement (Naga Sadow) - well...that only makes Sidious look weak for me. Sorry...
c) Dooku was talking about Sidious ability to cloak his presence within the force - what does that tell you about his power ? Exar Kun was walking around on Ossus (a planet filled with Jedi) and recruiting them for his means while not being recognized as a force user.
Lets look at what he did in the prequels, he took over the republic...no other sith in history that we know of has done that. Naga Sadow failed, Exar Kun failed, Revan almost did it but failed...Marka Ragnos never dared to try.
Sadow was betrayed before he even really tried.
Kun was betrayed by Ulic and the Jedi needed an army of force users to kill him (still he was able to stay as a spirit on Yavin 4.)
Revan was also betrayed by Malak.
Ragnos never did try because in his minds the calculation was like that: "The first Dark Jedi / Sith Lords were defeated by the Jedi so I have to assume that we would still get defeated by the Jedi" (and he was wrong with that).
Sidious killed 3 great jedi masters in about two seconds, and yes they were highly skilled - mace didnt bring them along as cannon fodder. Heres were a controversy begins in the fight with mace, the book pretty much made it clear that palpatine won(When he sensed mace and co. coming he smiled..), as for the movie its up in the air..I still think palpatine was playing with mace but that debate will probably never be solved. But moving on he went on to (at the very least) fight yoda himself to a draw, the 900 year old grandmaster of the jedi(who many believe to be the strongest jedi of all time, its stated in wikipedia). And remember this is before all the jedi artifacts of the temple were plundered and added to palpatines strength.
- Mace did bring them because that were the only masters available at that point and if you see how they did "fight" they were nothing more than cannon fodder
- Sidious only was lucky against Yoda and needed Anakin to survive Mace. The ancient Sith Lords would most likely play tennis with Mace's head without even thinking about using their weapons.
- Jedi artifacts ? Thinks of Sith artifacts like amuletts that multiply your raw force powers or swords so powerful that they can't even be controlled by their own creators. What do you think Sidious found at the Jedi temple (and why the Jedi didn't use it) ?
Also remember that is pre DE sidious, if I use DE sidious than my side of the argument is strengthened further. I have to leave, perhaps Ill continue tonight If I have time.. then Ill be happy to argue why sidious would win against a set opponent. I *believe* sidious would win against all sith lords except ragnos and maybe exar kun.
Oh...yes...DE Sidious. You don't even have to discuss throwing DE Sidious in here because you can throw in Nihilus or Sekot as well (two other being that DE Sidious wouldn't be able to defeat) - that's boring.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a) Sidious is Lucas ultimate villian - Did you realize that this is an EU subforum ?
b) Sidious is so strong that he is consumed by channeling some power for a little bit of Sith lightning blocked by a lightsaber where other people were able to keep their natural shape while blowing up stars with a hand movement (Naga Sadow) - well...that only makes Sidious look weak for me. Sorry...
c) Dooku was talking about Sidious ability to cloak his presence within the force - what does that tell you about his power ? Exar Kun was walking around on Ossus (a planet filled with Jedi) and recruiting them for his means while not being recognized as a force user.Sadow was betrayed before he even really tried.
Kun was betrayed by Ulic and the Jedi needed an army of force users to kill him (still he was able to stay as a spirit on Yavin 4.)
Revan was also betrayed by Malak.
Ragnos never did try because in his minds the calculation was like that: "The first Dark Jedi / Sith Lords were defeated by the Jedi so I have to assume that we would still get defeated by the Jedi" (and he was wrong with that).- Mace did bring them because that were the only masters available at that point and if you see how they did "fight" they were nothing more than cannon fodder
- Sidious only was lucky against Yoda and needed Anakin to survive Mace. The ancient Sith Lords would most likely play tennis with Mace's head without even thinking about using their weapons.
- Jedi artifacts ? Thinks of Sith artifacts like amuletts that multiply your raw force powers or swords so powerful that they can't even be controlled by their own creators. What do you think Sidious found at the Jedi temple (and why the Jedi didn't use it) ?Oh...yes...DE Sidious. You don't even have to discuss throwing DE Sidious in here because you can throw in Nihilus or Sekot as well (two other being that DE Sidious wouldn't be able to defeat) - that's boring.
No know what I love about Nai Fohl? You can always count him to bring the facts and prove you wrong...