Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Wolverine haters have flamed this thread with there trollin.
I don't hate Wolverine he sometimes wins when he shouldn't thats comics - Heroes are usually the underdogs in power and thats how it should be. Sadly people like Chris Claremont forget this and make there characters "god-like", Wolverine is not, and written well he is a genius character. He really started off the feet of clay modern superhero.
^cosigns 92%
except for that CC bash, you damn blokes! 😠
Originally posted by PiedmonIt's a standard neutral scenario. In a cityscape environment without prep he'd still lose. In a scenario in which Wolverine is given free reign to prepare a sneak attack on Havok he has better odds.
Yeah, neutral. Neutral the way a British Man with a Lee-Enfield parks himself 200 paces from an African lion and shoots it, then declares "I beat him fair! You all saw!"
There's the Danger Room and then there's the real world. Outside of a featureless arena, in a place where Wolverine's skills could come into play, he would take Havok out.
Originally posted by PiedmonYour point was that in my opinion Spider-Man and Black Panther would beat Wolverine? Why didn't you quote that I said he would beat Captain America?
Well, that was my point, wasn't it? =P
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's a standard neutral scenario. In a cityscape environment without prep he'd still lose. In a scenario in which Wolverine is given free reign to prepare a sneak attack on Havok he has better odds.
In a city environment, there's cover and terrain to consider. A "city," supports a huge variety of different places to stage a fight, so where woul this be? In the middle of a street? Even if Havok didn't care about innocent life and was going to use his maximum potential, Wolverine can use oncoming traffic as a screen to hide himself, slip around Havok and stab him from behind. Wolverine is a trained stealth fighter, and the only one in this fight with hyper-senses.
Your point was that in my opinion Spider-Man and Black Panther would beat Wolverine? Why didn't you quote that I said he would beat Captain America? [/B]
I did... you said it at the end there..... my point is you think just about anyone with superpowers could beat Wolverine. What makes him so dangerous isn't his powers, but the skills he couples with them.
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
lol.... i second that!!!!
taken from elswhere 🙂
Thoughts
in the interest of the poster's self-glorification, of course
>
>
> -Jean Grey, the mutant Yogi:
>
> OK, since this is, after all, a superhero comic, what follows may seem out of place. But don't underestimate Morrison's own pretentiousness
>
> In the last issue of the run, Cassandra says that "according to my Shi'ar files, the Phoenix consciousness accesses its host through the Chakra placed at the crown of the head" or something to that effect (I don't have the issues handy so I'm quoting from memory). This throwaway line is Morrison's main contribution to clearing up the Phoenix continuity.
>
> Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".
That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.
Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.
What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.
Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff
Keep the faith its spelt Kabbalah
Stay Whirly
lots of essayists out there some are better than others.
Some other forums I belong to shred the Kabbalah link even more - I look forward to posting them.
Originally posted by PiedmonI said cityscape not city - there are no random people walking and driving around - no one ever assumes there to be random bystanders in any standard vs fight when people say city environment. No prep so they both start in the same location.
In a city environment, there's cover and terrain to consider. A "city," supports a huge variety of different places to stage a fight, so where woul this be? In the middle of a street? Even if Havok didn't care about innocent life and was going to use his maximum potential, Wolverine can use oncoming traffic as a screen to hide himself, slip around Havok and stab him from behind. Wolverine is a trained stealth fighter, and the only one in this fight with hyper-senses.
Originally posted by PiedmonBlack Panther doesn't really have superpowers now does he? There are people with super powers I think he'd beat.
I did... you said it at the end there..... my point is you think just about anyone with superpowers could beat Wolverine. What makes him so dangerous isn't his powers, but the skills he couples with them.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Not only that. . but that was supposed to shred the link?Looked more like it reenforced it. . . 😆
Poor Whirly, trying so hard to acheive something, but wound up doing the opposite.
no2 sad. . .
Not really it shows no Kabbalah link at all.
"What you outline is exactly what I have to give Morrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symbolism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course."
It does show an attempt at Angels etc and the writers fumbling the ball on the Kabbalah, like the omega point 🙂 read it all 🙂
Poor old Crehosk only listens to one forums expert - I know many and this is all of there opinions as the post above states and provides evidence. The writer of the post is by the way a comparative religion major.
🙂
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
lots more posts shred it also 🙂
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Not really it shows no Kabbalah link at all."What you outline is exactly what I have to give Morrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symbolism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course."
It does show an attempt at Angels etc and the writers fumbling the ball on the Kabbalah, like the omega point 🙂 read it all 🙂
Poor old Crehosk only listens to one forums expert - I know many and this is all of there opinions as the post above states and provides evidence. The writer of the post is by the way a comparative religion major.
🙂
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
lots more posts shred it also 🙂
Yeah. . . connects to chakra and tree of life but nooo kabbalah connection . . uh huh. . .
riiiiiight . . . 🙄
Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah. . . connects to chakra and tree of life but nooo kabbalah connection . . uh huh. . .riiiiiight . . . 🙄
Chakras and the tree of life are part of lots of religions - don't argue with me argue with the evidence this is a quality post.
🙂
read it and understand 🙂
Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".
That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.
Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.
What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.
Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff
Keep the faith its spelt Kabbalah
Stay Whirly
lots of essayists out there some are better than others.
Some other forums I belong to shred the Kabbalah link even more - I look forward to posting them.
__________________
herd behaviour is a comical thingchallenge your ideas!
Originally posted by WhirlysplattAnd how many include hebrew? 😉
Chakras and the tree of life are part of lots of religions - don't argue with me argue with the evidence this is a quality post.🙂
read it and understand 🙂
Did you try understanding the post?
No seriously, this once again sounds like you copy and pasted something from somewhere else, without understanding it, sort of like your copy and pasting from the kabbalah FAQ thing, where it talk about different spellings, and then you contradict it. Just like you did here, it seems to reenforce the kabalistic link, and you say it shreds it. . .