Originally posted by guesswhosback
Kavar seemed to be the strongest in his time apart from Darth Malak, Darth Revan, The Exile, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Bastilla. I believe he was stronger than Vrook, Vandar, Zez-Kai Ell etc. and even Atris and Darth Bandon. Most of these people were definitely better than Tyranus (including Malak with the power of the Star Forge) and Bastilla arguably, and Kavar seemed to rival Revan during the beginning of the Mandalorian wars and did pretty well against the exile. He was a master in juyo as well as niman and despite popular belief, I don't believe Makashi to be the most effective form and definitely not better than vapaad or ataru. Kavar was very strong in the force as is shown by his use of stasis field when Vaklu's troops ambushed him and The Exile. Dooku also very strong in the force with his powers rivaling Yoda. They were both masters of the force and lightsaber but i believe Dooku is slightly better overall though it does depend on the situation and circumstances.
Famed Jedi Weapon Master, able to go head to head with Malak, who appears to be is better than Dooku in his own right. The Mandalorians believed him to be the most powerful Jedi alive, better than Vrook even (they probably didn't know about Revan), or is there another reason for him leading the Republic Army? I also read somewhere(I would give a source if I had it) that he was a master of Juyo.
You said it yourself, if the Mandalorians didn't know about Revan, how would they for sure know of the rest of the Jedi? They're ignorance forces you to take their word with a grain of salt.
We know he survived, but again, that alone doesn't seem to say much. Dooku was one of the most esteemed member of the order, with possibly only Yoda above him (and Sidious and Mace at his level).
Correction on that: The Mandalorians -wanted- Kavar to fight against them. Whether they respected his tactical know-how or his prowess in battle is never implied nor stated. They were much happier with Revan though, that much is stated. No one ever refered to him as the most powerful jedi alive. And as for him knowing Juyo, well... it is possible he knows Ataru, Juyo, Shii-Cho and Shien, since these forms are the ones taught by the three jedi masters. It's hard to tell if this is siply a gameplay mechanic ploy (that is, it appears to be in the storyline, but it doesn't neccessarily make for a canon story point. Example: Kreia can ONLY know forms I - III, but yet she has extensive knowledge of ALL of them.)
So really, we have reputation and hearsay. If we seek to have conclusive evidence, Dooku can contend with and likely kill Kavar.
Originally posted by Illustrious
You said it yourself, if the Mandalorians didn't know about Revan, how would they for sure know of the rest of the Jedi? They're ignorance forces you to take their word with a grain of salt.We know he survived, but again, that alone doesn't seem to say much. Dooku was one of the most esteemed member of the order, with possibly only Yoda above him (and Sidious and Mace at his level).
But I said they may have not known about Revan. They did know about Kavar though. It seems likely that they knew who the Council Members were. They knew a lot about Ancient Sith, showing they do their research.
Dooku had only Yoda above him, but remember, these are PT Jedi. As you love to talk about, a sword master from Medieval times could waste any swordmaster alive today. Jedi were trained to be soldiers back then, not thug killers.
This was only 40 years after Kun. Many Jedi from the Great Sith War were still alive, yet Kavar was thought to be the best to fight the Mandalorians.
The thing about Makashi being weak against multiple opponents was from KOTOR 2. Not the most reputable source, but its also not from gameplay.
True, but a great swordmaster, sitting close to the peak, from today, would manage to beat an above average swordmaster from the medieval period.
Since you like numbers, I'll use a statistics term. I don't know if Kavar has enough deviations from the norm to beat Dooku, who we KNOW has many deviations above the norm.
Originally posted by Illustrious
True, but a great swordmaster, sitting close to the peak, from today, would manage to beat an above average swordmaster from the medieval period.Since you like numbers, I'll use a statistics term. I don't know if Kavar has enough deviations from the norm to beat Dooku, who we KNOW has many deviations above the norm.
Close to the peak? As in the human limit, or just the peak of his time? And don't even call Kavar above average, he was the HEAD of the Jedi Guardians. How does that make him just above average?
I'm sorry, I haven'y slept in a long while. What you said in the second paragraph is probably very clear, but can you clarify what you are saying?
He was the peak of the time, we can't place where the peak of the human limit is. We do know that for most instances, there are diminishing returns at the high end save for the case of a breakthrough (more powerful force powers, for example).
Basically, while you may argue the peak from the KotOR era, and even the mean or median, is stronger than the PT era (and I'd agree with you), we don't know exactly where Kavar places along that distribution, so we can't say he would for sure be stronger than Dooku, who's right at the very extreme of his time.
Originally posted by Illustrious
He was the peak of the time, we can't place where the peak of the human limit is. We do know that for most instances, there are diminishing returns at the high end save for the case of a breakthrough (more powerful force powers, for example).Basically, while you may argue the peak from the KotOR era, and even the mean or median, is stronger than the PT era (and I'd agree with you), we don't know exactly where Kavar places along that distribution, so we can't say he would for sure be stronger than Dooku, who's right at the very extreme of his time.
Alright, thanks for the clarification(I pulled an all-nighter last night studying for a test, so I'm a little tired).
I agree with you on the first point. I just wanted to make sure you weren't going to try and argue like Nai did about Jedi in both times being close to the physical limit.
True, we don't know where exactly Kavar is, but he seems to be the equivlent of Mace, except more infasis on fighting than negoations. That is just speculation though, so I can't expect that to sway anyone.
I am going to stress again that he was the head of the Guardians. Guardians were the soldiers of the Order. There job was to use force to keep the galaxy ticking. They were the best class in the Order for fighting(except Weapon Master, which is pretty much a branch of the Guardians)This basically means(from my definition of Guardian) that Kavar, being the greatest Guardian as the BEST fighter in the Order.
You could very well argue that Yoda wasn't a Guardian, but he was the best in the Order. That is because he was trained close to the Battle of Ruusan. It doesn't seem likely that the Jedi thought the Sith extinct after only 100 or so years, because remember that the Sith had disappered for longer than this in the past. The Jedi just ended a war that had been raging for a thousand years. They are going to keep training fighters instead of siplomats for some time. When they decided that the Sith were extinct, I don't know.
This would put both of them at the very extremes of their times. Kavar maybe an even greater extreme because he seems to be the best alive, with Dooku for sure in the top four, but almost certainly second at the highest. Even if Vrook was better, then Kavar still would be second best in a time of greater Jedi.