ROTS Anakin VS ROTS Kenobi IF Kenobi didn't have higher ground

I think this is fairly obvious considering (in the movie) Anakin was constantly pushing Kenobi back and kicking him and knocking him down, even though Kenobi did hit him a few times, but not as much as Anakin. Just imagine, if Anakin hadn't jumped accross the room at Kenobi, missed him, and hit the control panel that caused the whole place to come down, ultimatley causing Anakin's loss. I will say their force powers are equal, from the whole scene when there trying to both force push themselves away. But Anakin does practice more than Kenobi in swordmanship from what Kenobi says in AOTC. He's pretty damn powerful for his age and was nearly appointed Master in the council. He may not be experienced, but he is a damn good swordsman and has equal force powers as Kenobi. You can also consider this, maybe he did hit the control panel and everything came down, but that higher ground never came, it wasn't there.... then what?

By the way, I did a search and found nothing, if this has already been done please link the thread.

I think its irrevalant. Kenobi's style is more defence oriented, and he had the experience. No matter what would have happened Kenobi would have found the high ground. If you notice, Obi basicly controled where they went in the fight... He backed down the hall, into the meeting room, onto the lava, and then onto the hill where he knew he would have Anakin beat. Obi viewed the fight as a chess match, while to Abakin it was boxing. Obi out thought him and won, It would happen again the sameway.

Good accessment of the fight. And agreed- Obi-Wan having the higher ground was only a matter of time.

And even if not the high ground, he would always manage to put himself into a position of superiority.

without the higher ground, this fight would have gone on forever.

How do you know Obi was backing away and Anakin wasn't pushing him back? Anakin, like I said, was constantly kicking and punching him forcing him to move back. In the movie you can tell in Obi's eyes he was scared constantly retreating. Either Anakin has awesome offense or Obi doesn't have as strong of a defense as you may think, there was plenty of times when Anakin got hits off him. And what makes you think Obi is defense oriented? Didn't he offensively kill Darth Maul? Didn't he chase Grevious down until he was cornered and finally killed him from supression? Regardless, there may be a time when there is no higher ground... then what? Obi has experience, yes.... but that's the only thing that kept him from going down faster from Anakins overwhelming aggressive offensive.

[QUOTE=5114674]Originally posted by kamikazi989
How do you know Obi was backing away and Anakin wasn't pushing him back?

Because he started backpedalling the instant he started parrying. It's a defensive technique. Go study swordsmanship.

Anakin, like I said, was constantly kicking and punching him forcing him to move back.

Anakin was aggressive. Anakin also didn't gain the advantage really at any one point in the fight. Obi-Wan matched him, outmaneuvered him, and in the end pwned him. Period.

In the movie you can tell in Obi's eyes he was scared constantly retreating.

WTF? Now Obi-wan was scared? Please. You have no proof of this. Stop already.

Either Anakin has awesome offense or Obi doesn't have as strong of a defense as you may think, there was plenty of times when Anakin got hits off him.

And Obi-Wan nearly killed Anakin many times. What's your point? Do you -need- Anakin to be the better fighter or something? NG says that Anakin is a better swordsman by one level (out of the ten point system, Annie's a nine, Obi an eight. Keep in mind NG hates Obi-Wan). But even NG says that Anakin never mastered the mental aspect of fighting while Obi-Wan did. Hence, ANakin might be very powerful, but he didn't have proper control. Period.

And what makes you think Obi is defense oriented?

uh, the fact that he mastered form III, which is a defensive form.

Didn't he offensively kill Darth Maul?

Yes, before when he practiced Form IV, which he stopped using after TPM when he saw his mentor get tooled.

Didn't he chase Grevious down until he was cornered and finally killed him from supression?

Obi-wan defeated Grievious in saber combat by being defensive, not offensive. And the rest of the fight wasn't saber to saber, so why bother with it?

Regardless, there may be a time when there is no higher ground... then what? Obi has experience, yes.... but that's the only thing that kept him from going down faster.

I didn't think any Anakin fanboys existed. Obi-Wan trained Anakin. He knew him inside and out. He defeated him in combat. He was smart enough and resourceful enough to defeat or hold hsi own with far better opponents than Anakin Skywalker. Why are you so persistent on this?

Any other Jedi of Obi's age would have went down quick.

Proof of this?

Janus you know Obi was using Form IV in his duel with Anakin right?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
[QUOTE=5114674]Originally posted by kamikazi989
[B]How do you know Obi was backing away and Anakin wasn't pushing him back?

Because he started backpedalling the instant he started parrying. It's a defensive technique. Go study swordsmanship.

Anakin, like I said, was constantly kicking and punching him forcing him to move back.

Anakin was aggressive. Anakin also didn't gain the advantage really at any one point in the fight. Obi-Wan matched him, outmaneuvered him, and in the end pwned him. Period.

In the movie you can tell in Obi's eyes he was scared constantly retreating.

WTF? Now Obi-wan was scared? Please. You have no proof of this. Stop already.

Either Anakin has awesome offense or Obi doesn't have as strong of a defense as you may think, there was plenty of times when Anakin got hits off him.

And Obi-Wan nearly killed Anakin many times. What's your point? Do you -need- Anakin to be the better fighter or something? NG says that Anakin is a better swordsman by one level (out of the ten point system, Annie's a nine, Obi an eight. Keep in mind NG hates Obi-Wan). But even NG says that Anakin never mastered the mental aspect of fighting while Obi-Wan did. Hence, ANakin might be very powerful, but he didn't have proper control. Period.

And what makes you think Obi is defense oriented?

uh, the fact that he mastered form III, which is a defensive form.

Didn't he offensively kill Darth Maul?

Yes, before when he practiced Form IV, which he stopped using after TPM when he saw his mentor get tooled.

Didn't he chase Grevious down until he was cornered and finally killed him from supression?

Obi-wan defeated Grievious in saber combat by being defensive, not offensive. And the rest of the fight wasn't saber to saber, so why bother with it?

Regardless, there may be a time when there is no higher ground... then what? Obi has experience, yes.... but that's the only thing that kept him from going down faster.

I didn't think any Anakin fanboys existed. Obi-Wan trained Anakin. He knew him inside and out. He defeated him in combat. He was smart enough and resourceful enough to defeat or hold hsi own with far better opponents than Anakin Skywalker. Why are you so persistent on this?

Any other Jedi of Obi's age would have went down quick.

Proof of this? [/B]

Janus pwns again...

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Janus you know Obi was using Form IV in his duel with Anakin right?

Simus, you do know you should really prove up, right? For every instance that Obi-wan used a defensive tactic in the battle (giving ground, parrying, keeping the blade close to his body, etc.) he was using Soresu, form III. It's not just a move, it's a philosophy behind fighting.

Starnge every time I have heard something concernig Obi-Wan form in that duel it stated he was using Ataru.

Ataru is totally aggressive. It's basically like how Qui Gon Jinn fights. Obi-Wan in ROTS never fights like this.

Look...

From what litle I can make out he looks like hes being aggressive. But then again I can barely make anything out.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Originally posted by kamikazi989
[B]How do you know Obi was backing away and Anakin wasn't pushing him back?

Because he started backpedalling the instant he started parrying. It's a defensive technique. Go study swordsmanship.

He started backpedalling right away because Anakin's attack was agressive.... man I just said that didn't I? He was backing up because he didn't want to get slice and diced like a Mandolorian salad.

Anakin, like I said, was constantly kicking and punching him forcing him to move back.

Anakin was aggressive. Anakin also didn't gain the advantage really at any one point in the fight. Obi-Wan matched him, outmaneuvered him, and in the end pwned him. Period.

Neither one of them really had the advantage. The only thing we have to work with is how it was obious Anakin was PUSHING not being lead by Obi. Obi-Wan matched him in force powers ONLY that is why Anakin hit him more times tool. And outmanuevered? I hate reiterating myself, but what did I just say? Who was supressing the whole time and who got hit?? In the end Anakin made a mistake, for obvious reasons, and got his ass handed to him because of that one mistake. That's why I did this whole scenario, what if Obi did not have the higher ground.

In the movie you can tell in Obi's eyes he was scared constantly retreating.

WTF? Now Obi-wan was scared? Please. You have no proof of this. Stop already.

Scared was an over statement. Obi was definitly suprised and overwhelmed from him. Anakin, on the other hand, was stupid but confident, he showed nothing but agressiveness.

Either Anakin has awesome offense or Obi doesn't have as strong of a defense as you may think, there was plenty of times when Anakin got hits off him.

And Obi-Wan nearly killed Anakin many times. What's your point? Do you -need- Anakin to be the better fighter or something? NG says that Anakin is a better swordsman by one level (out of the ten point system, Annie's a nine, Obi an eight. Keep in mind NG hates Obi-Wan). But even NG says that Anakin never mastered the mental aspect of fighting while Obi-Wan did. Hence, ANakin might be very powerful, but he didn't have proper control. Period.

And Obi nearly killed Anakin many times..... look at it this way... Anakin nearly killed Obi MANY more times. It was only a matter of time. I don't need for him to be a better fighter at all, it's just funny that you would overlook the obvious clue's. Im tempted to call you a Obi fan boy, what else could explain it? And is NG rating Anakin when he was Sith or not? Anakin, as a Sith was more powerful but also more stupid. Anakin didn't have control over his emotions, thats it.

And what makes you think Obi is defense oriented?

uh, the fact that he mastered form III, which is a defensive form.

What the hell is mastered form III?? Is this a fanboy made thing? Unless Lucas himself or someone who made the Star Wars Universe made up that guide, it's BS.

Didn't he offensively kill Darth Maul?

Yes, before when he practiced Form IV, which he stopped using after TPM when he saw his mentor get tooled.

Point made.

Didn't he chase Grevious down until he was cornered and finally killed him from supression?

Obi-wan defeated Grievious in saber combat by being defensive, not offensive. And the rest of the fight wasn't saber to saber, so why bother with it?

Initially he waited for Grevious to attack, the final fight Obi attacked. Offensive.

Regardless, there may be a time when there is no higher ground... then what? Obi has experience, yes.... but that's the only thing that kept him from going down faster.

I didn't think any Anakin fanboys existed. Obi-Wan trained Anakin. He knew him inside and out. He defeated him in combat. He was smart enough and resourceful enough to defeat or hold hsi own with far better opponents than Anakin Skywalker. Why are you so persistent on this?

I will admit I probably favor Anakin more, but that's not something that would alter what happened. Obi didn't teach Anakin everything he knew, Anakin also learned things on his own and practiced his swordsmanship with Yoda. You also forget, Anakin knows everything Obi knows, if not more. Obi has taught him everything he knows. I'm only persistent because I want to know why you won't admit the obvious? It's funny though, you say Obi has beaten far better opponents, remind me..... what happened with Dooku? Think man, think. What you say may seem to make sense at first, but think about before you write some of the things your writing.

Any other Jedi of Obi's age would have went down quick.

Proof of this? [/B]

A Jedi becomes more powerful in age, but that's not all that helps it. It's how strong they are initially with the force as well. Their are Jedi's out there that have power they earned from age and some experience, but Obi, for his age, is also powerful, and Anakin, for his age, is extremely powerful.

okay, kamakazi, janus pretty much hit every nail on the head i just want to add something. the thing about him chasing down greivous, that didn't make much sense to me. he chased him down because those were his orders, that has nothing to do with his lightsaber style. other than that, i complement janus.

every source of ROTS ive read stated that obi-wan was using Ataru. When i have time, ill look for them (not wikipedia)

Your going to have to ignore everything being bolded, not sure why but I used the correct ways to unbold and bold.

He started backpedalling right away because Anakin's attack was agressive.... man I just said that didn't I? He was backing up because he didn't want to get slice and diced like a Mandolorian salad.

Actually, the number one best way to deal with someone who is ridiculously aggressive is to... give ground and keep your defense up. Obi-Wan did this. Note that When confronted with both Anakin and Obi-Wan, Dooku even gave ground, parrying the attacks but never attacking. This is defensive technique. Obi-Wan was not gonna stand there and stalemate Anakin initially, although there was a point in the control room where the two went at it at about a little over arm's length. Obi-Wan certainly wasn't buckling at this point. Didn't see any fear either.

Neither one of them really had the advantage.

Well, with one person unable to use his aggressiveness to full effect, the fight appeared to be that way... a testamont to Obi-wan's defensive technique. If Anakin was so much better, he would have overwhelmed Obi-Wan very quickly, and SW history would be rewritten.

The only thing we have to work with is how it was obious Anakin was PUSHING not being lead by Obi.

This is semantic nonsense. Aggressive fighting does appear to be pushing, but this does not mean one is in complete control of the fight. If anything, being more defensive minded is a smarter tactic against an equal or greater opponent than an -in-your-face approach. Just look at Qui-gon Jinn- Maul effectively toyed with him and parried his moves, and then finally used Quis own aggressiveness against him and counterattacked. Checkmate.

Obi-Wan matched him in force powers ONLY that is why Anakin hit him more times tool.

Do you count every single sweep or kick or whatever as a "hit"? None of them garnered Anakin the win, and Obi-Wan quite often reciprocated. I'm looking at battle technique. But thanks for the insult.

And outmanuevered? I hate reiterating myself, but what did I just say? Who was supressing the whole time and who got hit??

Suppressing? Sounds like a big word for something that obviously doesn't apply here. Anakin was lashing out. He was balls to the wall attacking obi-Wan. And Obi-wan managed to stay on his toes, keep moving, and finally arrived at a place that benefitted him while still in one piece. Game over. This is a done deal. If anyone should hate reiterating themselves, it should be me.

In the end Anakin made a mistake, for obvious reasons, and got his ass handed to him because of that one mistake. That's why I did this whole scenario, what if Obi did not have the higher ground.

And this whole scenario is pointless, because the point is that Obi-Wan was more clever and flexible than Anakin was at that point. Anakin was too mad to see straight. He was engulfed in the dark side and it clouded his vision of his best friend and resulted in him losing his limbs at the end of the fight. A rational, effective fighter would NOT make such a mistake. Anakin's mindset was not up to the task. Yes, Anakin is a better offensive swordsman. No doubt. His defense needs work, but it's still reasonable. However, his MIND needs work. He was not ready. Period. Obi-Wan outclassed him.

Scared was an over statement. Obi was definitly suprised and overwhelmed from him. Anakin, on the other hand, was stupid but confident, he showed nothing but agressiveness.

This is you speculating into a fictional character's mindset. There is no evidence of Obi-Wan being scared, there are no screen shots of it, nothing. This is your imagination.

And Obi nearly killed Anakin many times..... look at it this way... Anakin nearly killed Obi MANY more times.

I thought you just said "Neither one of them really had the advantage". Eating our words, are we?

It was only a matter of time.

This is opinion and based on really, nothing.

I don't need for him to be a better fighter at all, it's just funny that you would overlook the obvious clue's. Im tempted to call you a Obi fan boy, what else could explain it?

I'm not the one spitting in the face of actual Sw events here. You are coming off as the fanboy, trying to find someway, anyway to say that Anakin outclassed Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan got lucky. Isn't that your point?

And is NG rating Anakin when he was Sith or not? Anakin, as a Sith was more powerful but also more stupid. Anakin didn't have control over his emotions, thats it.

Anakin didn't change in skills with a saber when he became a Sith and had his ass handed to him the same day. Anger isn't enough to kick you up to ten on NG's scale, or else he would have stated that. He didn't.

What the hell is mastered form III?? Is this a fanboy made thing? Unless Lucas himself or someone who made the Star Wars Universe made up that guide, it's BS.

You really are clueless. Look, this is a Star Wars EU Subsection. Form III also exists in the Visual Dictionaries and other sources. Get a grip on the situation. You want to argue and say "bs omfg dudn't exist" go make your threads in the Episode III section. We don't like to deal with people in the EU sections who don't know or use Eu in their arguments.

Point made.

Which point is this?

Initially he waited for Grevious to attack, the final fight Obi attacked. Offensive.

Please. In saber combat, Obi-wan was defensive in nature. It's his style. Does this even PROVE anything, or are you just shitting a red herring to get this all wrapped up in some more nonsense?

I will admit I probably favor Anakin more, but that's not something that would alter what happened.

So why would it alter what might have happened, either?

Obi didn't teach Anakin everything he knew, Anakin also learned things on his own and practiced his swordsmanship with Yoda. You also forget, Anakin knows everything Obi knows, if not more.

Anyone else find the contradiction in this one??

Obi has taught him everything he knows.

And again.

I'm only persistent because I want to know why you won't admit the obvious?
It's funny though, you say Obi has beaten far better opponents, remind me..... what happened with Dooku? Think man, think. What you say may seem to make sense at first, but think about before you write some of the things your writing.

Me think? You think! Why the hell did you make a debate thread about an Episode III what-if in an Eu versus forum when you A) are already decided and B) don't even know Eu material? Wtf?

A Jedi becomes more powerful in age, but that's not all that helps it. It's how strong they are initially with the force as well. Their are Jedi's out there that have power they earned from age and some experience, but Obi, for his age, is also powerful, and Anakin, for his age, is extremely powerful.

You didn't prove to me how other older jedi besides Obi-Wan would "go down quick" to Anakin. Nice try.

Lol, nice.

Kamikazi, why can't you just admit that Obi-Wan at this stage outclasses Anakin?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Lol, nice.

Kamikazi, why can't you just admit that Obi-Wan at this stage outclasses Anakin?

Because Kamikazi is an Anakin fanboy...I mean even his name reminds me of Anakin.