who would be the best fighter if everyone had no powers?

What Esteemed said. Nobody's arguing Wonder Woman with her normal abilities can't rock Lady Shiva's world. Take those away, though, and leave her with only skill to fall back on ... and I'm not so sure she'd beat Shiva.

Now intuitively, it would seem that Wonder Woman ought to be able to because she's been fighting since long before Shiva's parents ever even MET and is therefore far more experienced ... but we know how much that counts for most of the time in comics. 😉

And then, too, in all fairness, it could easily be said that there are dimishing returns -- that you can only get so far in fighting skill before there just isn't that much left to learn, really. So really, SHOULD WW's greater experience necessarily count for so much anyway?

Of course, it's all moot. Karate Kid is the obvious winner. The only real discussion involves who gets second place. 😉

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
This is WITHOUT powers.

Wonder Woman isn't even close here. How is she getting so many votes? How is she even getting one vote?

DUH. I read the freaking thread title. 😬

Wonder Woman WAS without her powers in the comic. She had her powers nullified to make it a more even fight. Though I'm not sure how....

Originally posted by Orestes
What Esteemed said. Nobody's arguing Wonder Woman with her normal abilities can't rock Lady Shiva's world. Take those away, though, and leave her with only skill to fall back on ... and I'm not so sure she'd beat Shiva.

How? She's trained and mastered every martial art before by the time she was eleven.

By all logic, Lady Shiva should get completely owned.

Originally posted by Orestes
Now intuitively, it would seem that Wonder Woman ought to be able to because she's been fighting since long before Shiva's parents ever even MET and is therefore far more experienced ... but we know how much that counts for most of the time in comics. 😉

Yeah like the Thing or Captain America somehow outfighting Thor. Which is bullsh** to me.

Originally posted by Orestes
And then, too, in all fairness, it could easily be said that there are dimishing returns -- that you can only get so far in fighting skill before there just isn't that much left to learn, really. So really, SHOULD WW's greater experience necessarily count for so much anyway?

Not necessarily. Diana had loads of time to use her skills. Like hell dimensions and sparring with thousands of OTHER highly-proficent warrior women.

Originally posted by Orestes
Of course, it's all moot. Karate Kid is the obvious winner. The only real discussion involves who gets second place. 😉

To me it's Karate Kid, then Champion, then it's toss-up for all the rest of the places.

Champions been around longer than WW and Thor. Champion would probably be the man to beat.

Champion
KK
WW

She did not MASTER anything but swords and shields, lasso, typical Amazonian weaponry. She is merely an EXPERT at all forms of classic combat.

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
She did not MASTER anything but swords and shields, lasso, typical Amazonian weaponry. She is merely an EXPERT at all forms of classic combat.

Please. Tell me you're not arguing with ME about the prowess of Wonder Woman's abilities.

The above would certainly qualify for Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman. But it's completely off base for Current Wonder Woman. Especially with her various and confusing retcons.

Batman 1 Million might actually give KK a run for his money. Ok, maybe not, but he'd take 2nd pretty easily. Even barring psionics and his kickarse suit.

1. KK
2. Bats 1M
3. Should be Champ
4. Should probly be a "ancient god people" tossup... Thor, WW, Herc, stuff like that.
5. Batgirl/Shiva

Seriously though, showings of fighting skill for all of them are pretty low. Diana might even edge out Champion, going by feats alone. I know he's "mastered" all forms of combat, but where were they when he was basically asking for Thanos to beat the crap out of him?

what about Temugin? he managed to crack Iron Man's armour and he never had powers to start with

I know one thing, people like superman would get their ass kicked or killed all the time.

😖uperman:"Hold it, buddy! put the money back in the cash register!"

[Then jumps behind the shelf to hide]

Crook:"Who the **** said that!?! Show your self!"

[Superman pissing pants, wimpering and peeping from behind shelf]

Crook:"I said come out motha****er!"
[Crook walks over to shelf with shotgun, and points it at superman.]

[Superman looks up and sees gun pointed in face.]

Superman:"Oh my gawd!!!!!!"

"Powwwwww!"
[shotgun blasts off]

[crook runs out of store laughing]

Well i think its fair to count Daredevil out.
how `bout:
Nick Fury
He heads the entire world order. I fig. he may even know how to take out Cap. with his powers.

What about Wildcat he's been fighting a long time and fights super powered guys sometimes. He's a member of the JSA. Or maybe Zauriel he only has like over a million years of fighting experiance. Hawkman but thats probably only with weapons and maybe Lady Shiva.

If fighting experiance counts then it has to be Zauriel

nick fury has sparred with captian befor but lost.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Champion ... do Iron Fist's Chi abilities count as a "power"?

Galactus (even without the powers he's still about 80 feet tall)

Karate Kid probably

Champions been around for millions or possibly billions of years. He was their at the beginning with the Elders Of The Universe.

In issue #254 FF4, Galactus stated that he was around for about 20 billion years. The Elders, I think have been around longer.

Champ should be the man to be beat.

yet he loses to SHe Hulk

Daredevil would simply be a blind boi, if he didn't have his fancy radar thingy. Plus all his enchanced natural abilities, to look at are all the assassin types as well. Where I'd aim towards Deadpool,Batman,Deathstroke, (as Deathstroke fought against Wonder woman before with her powers) Tho she beat him only with her strength.
Wolverine does have a lot of training as well, being more a military stand point. However, I think this bought is more towards the tactical assassin types 🥷

jplatinum would be

Batman takes this.

WW and Thor have well u know.
Batgirl,Daredevil,Deathstroke have enhanced abilities.

Good thread.