Death Penalty

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ah, okay. Let's take this paragraph for paragraph. About statistics: Once you have worked with statistics extensively, as my fellow-researchers and I have done, it would be easier for you to understand why the phrase 'lies, damned lies and statistics' have become a truism in research, and why the focus of research have now changes from quantitative to qualitative.

But since you don't seem to have developed the same healthy skepticism that other researchers have, I merely refer you back to my earlier refutations. But, I would like to refer you to a link that describes what statistical literacy is: In short, it is 'The set of basic statistical skills (and skepticism) needed by people to deal with information in their everyday lives'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_literacy

As for your second paragraph, I thought we had come to some sort of agreement that the amount of people I wanted executed were 300 000, not 3 000? And that this would not only counteract the problem of overpopulation in prisons, thereby improving their living conditions and health and safety conditions, but also dramatically reduce the funds needed by prisons at the moment, thereby making my proposal much more cost-effective than simply keeping them alive until they die of old age?

Third paragraph. You have just described every animal in every household in every country in the world.

Fourth: The government is taking away their 'basic human right' to a safe environment, as I pointed out earlier. Fairly clearly, I thought.

As for the fifth, final paragraph - ah, well, how much time do you have? Where do I begin to explain to you what is happening here? Let me ask you this: Do you know anything about South Africa? Anything at all?

I am not accusing you of ignorance - I genuinely need to know in order to begin answering your final question...

Okay. Look. For the 5th time, I have no problem questioning statistics. That's not what I'm objecting to. I'm objecting to your claim that the statistic in question is invalid, while at the same time being accurate, simply because you don't like the system that it's referencing. You did a lazy little run around, and again, retorted to something that I never said. You obviously either A) Do not understand my point or B) simply don't care to retort against what I actually said. Keep in mind, you've still utterly failed at proving why a stat that is factual and true is somehow at the same time invalid.

I know you want a ridiculous amount of people murdered, that's not what I'm referring to (again, retorting to something that I never even argued with or said). You asked me to tell you when I proved you wrong because you forgot,I did that, and now you're acting like the discussion was somewhere else. Please stay on track.

No, pets do not have jobs, they don't have clothes, they don't get 3 hot meals, they don't get guaranteed free health care. That was simply one of the most idiotic claims I've ever heard. Stunning.

No, I don't know anything about South Africa. So yes, how is not murdering criminals hurting the country? Also, please avoid a poorly thought out and invalid correlation equals causation argument in your response. As I'm guessing, based on the ridiculous number of fallacies in your previous arguments, that that's what you're going to argue.

Originally posted by BackFire
Okay. Look. For the 5th time, I have no problem questioning statistics. That's not what I'm objecting to. I'm objecting to your claim that the statistic in question is invalid, when it is accurate, simply because you don't like the system that it's referencing. You did a lazy little run around, and again, retorted to something that I never said. You obviously either A) Do not understand my point or B) simply don't care to retort against what I actually said. Keep in mind, you've still utterly failed at proving why a stat that is factual and true is somehow at the same time invalid.

I know you want a ridiculous amount of people murdered, that's not what I'm referring to (again, retorting to something that I never even argued with or said). You asked me to tell you when I proved you wrong because you forgot,I did that, and now you're acting like the discussion was somewhere else. Please stay on track.

No, pets do not have jobs, they don't have clothes, they don't get 3 hot meals, they don't get guaranteed free health care. That was simply one of the most idiotic claims I've ever heard. Stunning.

No, I don't know anything about South Africa. So yes, how is not murdering criminals hurting the country? Also, please avoid a poorly thought out and invalid correlation equals causation argument in your response. As I'm guessing, based on the ridiculous number of fallacies in your previous arguments, that that's what you're going to argue.

Point one. If you didn't understand what I said about statistics, you are either obtuse or still desperately clinging to your only pathetic defense. I said they are invalid because they did not take all the factors into account. Clear enough for you now?

Point two. You spoke about cost. I pointed out that my method cost a lot less than yours did.

Point three. If you cannot guarantee a pet's health, happiness and regular meals, then you should clearly not have one, because then you don't know what the word 'pet' means. Making their owners happy is a job many pets have. In return, you are obligated to take care of them.

Or let me guess, if you ever (God forbid) had a pet, you left it outside, without shelter or food, without anything to do except be tied to a pole - and then you beat it when it cried?

Point four. In SA, as I stated previously if you had bothered to read my arguments instead of using the time to keep on simply defending your own, we have one of the most violent crime rates in the world, outside of a war zone. This, combined with corruption and an inadequately paid and trained police force, means that rapists now don't even get a full prison sentence because, as one judge (I kid you not) stated: Well, at least after you raped the woman, you didn't kill her! Therefore I am not even going to give you the full sentence for rape.

Our prisoners break out of jail or court, time after time after time again. They rob, rape and murder their way through our society to such an extent, that every skilled person who can, is leaving the country, making it increasingly difficult and unsafe for those of us who are still here, trying to make a decent living.

We have one of the highest rates of HIV/Aids infections in the world, in fact, so high, that recently an Australian court ruled that sentencing man to prison in SA is equal to condemning him to death, taking into account the number of rapes in prison. This means that white-collar criminals, forced into crowded jail cells due to overcrowding, face almost certain assault and eventual death at the hands of the more violent criminals.

We do not live in an ideal world. And I do not live in an ideal country, where I can afford to talk in the abstract about rights, ethics and morals. We are trying to stay alive, to survive in a country where every single citizen has a personal experience to relate regarding violent crime.

We live in fear, because we KNOW we are going to be victims, again and again. We simply do not know how bad it is going to be - if we simply lose our possessions and our dignity, then we count ourselves lucky.

THAT is why the current solution is not working. THAT is why I am in favour of bringing the death penalty back.

Hahaha "My only pathetic defense". The defense of "it's right, so it's not invalid". Pathetic? Nah. Factual. And the stat in question does take into account all factors: A big reason why the death penalty costs more is because of all the court rulings and appeals that don't happen in cases where a person isn't fighting the government to keep their life. Lame? Maybe. It's still part of the total cost. It still costs more, and that's all the stat is saying.

I don't think your method of murdering hundreds of thousands of people would end up saving any money. You'd still have to have trials for all those people, and prove that they actually did what you're trying to murder them for. Would still be quite costly. But that's not what I was referring to, was it? My argument was that circulating the people that are on death row into prison wouldn't substantially increase the number of the prison population. Which you didn't disagree with. You simply said (irrelevantly) that you want to kill more people. The two things don't have anything to do with one another. Again, you are responding to something that I never said.

More song and dance, you are proving to be a god awful debater. Me: "Prisoners aren't treated like pets, prisoners are guaranteed the rights you mentioned, pets are not". You: "YOU MUST BEAT YOUR PET AND TREAT IT BADLY AND TIE IT UP". Funny. But I'm laughing at you, not with you. Again, prisoners are guaranteed food, bedding, a room, shelter, health care, exercise equipment and usually a job. A pet is guaranteed nothing.

All that stuff you mention about your country, it sounds awful and all. But there is actually no direct connection between any of those problems and the death penalty. You have a shitty criminal justice system there. It sounds broken far beyond that of which simply killing a few people would fix. Implementing the death penalty won't magically fix it. And there's not a damn thing that suggests it would. And when did you mention anything about SA before? In the last post you simply asked if I knew anything about the country. I said no, and then you act like I missed some information somewhere.

Also, do you have stats to back up these claims you're making? Frankly, I don't believe you about SA being that bad. You make it sound as if you live in some post apocalyptic world where raving bands of lunatic-murdering-rapists roam the streets giving people Aids and murdering everyone. I ask for proof because, well, no offense, but you've shown to be laughably inadequate in bringing credibility to your claims.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's should not be about punishing someone, it should be about protecting society.

Originally posted by BackFire
you are proving to be a god awful debater.

Also, do you have stats to back up these claims you're making? Frankly, I don't believe you about SA being that bad. You make it sound as if you live in some post apocalyptic world where raving bands of lunatic-murdering-rapists roam the streets giving people Aids and murdering everyone. I ask for proof because, well, no offense, but you've shown to be laughably inadequate in bringing credibility to your claims.

I'm the awful debater?

Brother, I don't know whether I should laugh or cry, hearing that from you.

As for SA, do your own research. Although you don't seem to have the first clue about what research is or how to do it.

All you have to do is Google SA and crime.

Think you can handle that?

Yes, you are. Based on the large number of logical fallacies you've comitted (I don't expect you to know what those are).

And considering you said this:

That is probably why I have enjoyed debating with you so much tonight. Not only are your arguments well-thought out, rational and reasonable, but they are passionate and based on high levels of morals and ethical standards.

Again, about SA, you're making claims, it's up to YOU to prove them and back them up. Don't say something, fail to back it up, and then run around saying "Do your own research". It's not up to me to prove YOUR claim correct.

Oh yes, Google. I forgot that that was the end all/be all of information sources, everything in google is accurate and correct.

Anywho. To summarize, here are the reasons as to why I'm now against the death penalty (keep in mind, I wasn't always. For a long while I was fine with it in premise, just was uncomfortable with the large amount of innocent people that are killed in the name of justice):

1. It is hypocritical. You cannot condemn something and condone it at the exact same time. It is the very definition of hypocracy.

2. It achieves nothing. It has been proven that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent to murder. It's a waste of time and money and life, and only creates more victims, like the criminal's loved ones; wife, child, mother, etc.

3. It lowers us to their level.

4. Innocent people are killed in the name of justice through this system.

Originally posted by Schecter
its "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Anyway, for instance, you kill someone then you die
You rape someone then you get raped....umm, got to employee a city rapist for that one. You rob someone, then you get your things taken. Things along this line.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
It's ...You left out that apostrophe there.... 🙄

Anyway, for instance, you kill someone then you die
You rape someone then you get raped....umm, got to employee a city rapist for that one. You rob someone, then you get your things taken. Things along this line.

right, but spelling/grammar nazism aside, i corrected your quote simply because it changed the entire meaning of the golden rule. what you stated was essentially 'eye for an eye'.

That is how I meant it.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
That is how I meant it.

Death Penalty....

*recycle*

*repeat*

*spin the wheel*

*regurgitate*

*going in circles*

I'm done.

Okay, I talked to two ex-cons at sports facility (field where you can play soccar, football, etc.)

Both of them served I little over 3 years in the Federal Pen recently.

They said it is horrible in prison. Basically, if you do one little thing wrong, you get beat down/ raped, or tortured. They said that the child molesters have it worst. They always get gang beaten at least once...if they are lucky. One of the dudes said he celled next to a young man who was horribly molested for many years as a child. A new guy came in one day and roomed with that young man. The first night, the young guy knocked out the molester while he was asleep, cut off all his genitals, and poored bleach on new wounds...the molester died his first night in prison.

He said that people got killed all the time in prison. A shiv hear, a fatal beat down there...it adds up. These types of things are not reported on the news for some reason.

Yes, the sodomy and gang raping DOES happen...especially to the new guys. The safest guys are the ones who never talk to anyone, never make eye contact, and do not get involved in anything. They said that even then, those quiet guys get beat up just because some other inmate wanted to be tough.

Also, the stuff you saw on the new "longest yard" with those girly gays guys is absolutely accurate...except for one detail....they actually have PIMPS in the prison and if you look at the girly guys, the pimps will beat the shit out of you...you can "buy" time with the girly guys from the pimps.

I have actually visited a pen twice but this is not the type of picture the "speaker" inmates gave us. They said stuff like, "You have to stay out of that bad stuff and be mature" etc. I guess they said stuff like that because I was younger than 18 and they didn't think it appropriate to go into the horrid details.

Case in point, it is much worse in the prison system than I thought. They only become hardened when they go to prison. The prison life is BRUTAL.

Rehab? The cast majority do NOT get rehabbed...rather, they become more vicious. There are the few that educate themselves and become better people...but according to these two gents I spoke to, the majority learn how to be better criminals and keep out of trouble.

This was info from only 2 men who served time recently. I can ask them about more stories if you guys want to read them.

The excuse that the death penalty is actually showing mercy may be accurate. If you really want revenge, many years in the system will definitely be much worse than a simple death.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Okay, I talked to two ex-cons at sports facility (field where you can play soccar, football, etc.) A shiv hear, a fatal beat down there...it adds up. If you really want revenge, many years in the system will definitely be much worse than a simple death.

Jesus H Christ! You are so full of shit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Okay, I talked to two ex-cons at sports facility (field where you can play soccar, football, etc.)

Both of them served I little over 3 years in the Federal Pen recently.

They said it is horrible in prison. Basically, if you do one little thing wrong, you get beat down/ raped, or tortured. They said that the child molesters have it worst. They always get gang beaten at least once...if they are lucky. One of the dudes said he celled next to a young man who was horribly molested for many years as a child. A new guy came in one day and roomed with that young man. The first night, the young guy knocked out the molester while he was asleep, cut off all his genitals, and poored bleach on new wounds...the molester died his first night in prison.

He said that people got killed all the time in prison. A shiv hear, a fatal beat down there...it adds up. These types of things are not reported on the news for some reason.

Yes, the sodomy and gang raping DOES happen...especially to the new guys. The safest guys are the ones who never talk to anyone, never make eye contact, and do not get involved in anything. They said that even then, those quiet guys get beat up just because some other inmate wanted to be tough.

Also, the stuff you saw on the new "longest yard" with those girly gays guys is absolutely accurate...except for one detail....they actually have PIMPS in the prison and if you look at the girly guys, the pimps will beat the shit out of you...you can "buy" time with the girly guys from the pimps.

I have actually visited a pen twice but this is not the type of picture the "speaker" inmates gave us. They said stuff like, "You have to stay out of that bad stuff and be mature" etc. I guess they said stuff like that because I was younger than 18 and they didn't think it appropriate to go into the horrid details.

Case in point, it is much worse in the prison system than I thought. They only become hardened when they go to prison. The prison life is BRUTAL.

Rehab? The cast majority do NOT get rehabbed...rather, they become more vicious. There are the few that educate themselves and become better people...but according to these two gents I spoke to, the majority learn how to be better criminals and keep out of trouble.

This was info from only 2 men who served time recently. I can ask them about more stories if you guys want to read them.

The excuse that the death penalty is actually showing mercy may be accurate. If you really want revenge, many years in the system will definitely be much worse than a simple death.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Did they say they would have rather been executed?

H to the N. They were only in prison for a little over 3 years for drug related charges...why would they want to be executed?

On another note, they seemed rather rough around the edges and I make sure to watch my mouth around them.....they are some pretty damn big.

bullshit anecdotal evidence for the win

Hey, given him credit, it read like a nice little summary of every prision movie that's ever been made

Originally posted by Devil King
Hey, given him credit, it read like a nice little summary of every prision movie that's ever been made

Stereotypes.............in this case, they were correct. Just like all generalizations, there are exceptions.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Stereotypes.............in this case, they were correct.

I seriously doubt it.

Originally posted by Devil King
I seriously doubt it.

okay. 😐

so how many ex cons do you know? maybe a field trip to the pen would help?